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water in the bilge/survey inspection

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Margaret
Deckhand

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USA
2 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/04/2002 : 13:54:06

I recently bought a 1980 Catalina 25 and the keel is attached to the boat with screws that go into the boat at the bilge. When I had the survey done there was no mention of any problem with the screws. Now, every time I take the boat out the bilge fills up. I don't get any water when the boat in in the slip (even with heavy rains), I have an outboard rudder and non of the thru hulls are leaking, so I can't think of any other way water might be coming in.

Two of the screws have some type of gunk or putty applied to them so the nut at the base of the screw is hidden. My question is...should the surveyor have identified this as an issue in his report? I was not with him when he inspected the boat.

Secondly, how do you recommend I proceed to deal with this problem? I'd like to try and fix it without having to take the boat out of the water.

Your opinion is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Margaret

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2002 : 14:23:57

Congrats and welcome Margaret!
Sounds like you're describing a fixed keel as opposed to a swing keel - is this correct?

Edited by - on

jm
Captain

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Canada
290 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2002 : 14:57:14

Hmmm. Maggie, you've got me stumped, unless of course you are heeling over so far that your side rails are under water and its coming in along the hull/deck joint ? (you animal !) Or, you're wave bashing and water is busting over the bow and the spray is finding its way in (animal again !)

Do you have any non-standard modifications or through hulls that would be above the water line while at rest (at the dock), but not while underway or heeled over ? (sink, head, head-sink thru hulls)

Lord forbid, a crack/hole in the hull that is just above the water line at rest, but not while underway ? How many people and how much gear do you normally take with you ? Maybe this additional weight is pushing the entry point under water ?

To our resident Scientists out there - (Buoyancy Engineers?) Is it possible that water only enters from below the waterline (speed-o, depthsound unit, or keel crack) when under the pressure of forward momentum, but not while at rest ? I would think that 5000 lbs (the weight of boat and keel) of downward pressure would create enough upward pressure to feed the leak, if there is one below. ?

Bottomline - to fix it, you need to identify the source of the leak. To find the source, you need to trace it back from the collection point (the bilge) Pump out the bilge and try to get it perfectly dry (bolts included). Run a chalkline (those big kiddie chalk pieces work great!) around the perimeter of the bilge about 8 inches up from the bottom. Take the boat out for a sail/motor, and have someone put their head in the bilge (with a flash light in hand) and see if they can identify where the water is coming from. (ie. if the bilge fills from the bottom up, it is probably a keel crack,(ie. the bolts get wet first), If you can see a trickle of water coming across the chalk line, try and trace it back to its origin.)

One other test - (not knowing if you are in fresh or salt water) If you're in salt water, what's collecting in your bilge? salt or fresh water ? If salt, then the sea is getting in - Duh.. If it's fresh, then it could be rain, coming in through a deck leak, getting hung up somewhere inside the hull (or anchor locker) and only draining into the bilge when the boat heels/tips one way or the other. It could also be that your water holding tank has an upper hose leak ! Only leaks when water tips to that side. ? ?

Edited by - jm on 11/04/2002 15:13:18

Edited by - jm on 11/04/2002 15:33:14

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2002 : 15:10:50

From your description, it sounds like there is leakage around the two keel bolts, and that the previous owner tried to stop it with putty or fiberglass resin. Your surveyor should certainly have looked into the bilge, and should have noticed that two keel bolts had globs of goop on them, and should have insisted that the previous owner explain why the goop was there. The presence of the goop should have been a tip-off to the surveyor that there was a problem that the previous owner tried to correct.

But first, check out the possibilities that JM discusses. Especially have someone check the bilge while the boat is underway and heeled.

Then call Catalina and describe the problem to them, and ask their advice. If Catalina says it is a big problem, then I suggest you call your attorney. The owner should have disclosed any hidden defects of which he was aware, and/or the surveyor should have found the problem.

I can only guess at the cause and remedy. At the place where the keel is bolted to the hull, there is a plank of wood, completely surrounded by fiberglass. The keelbolts go through the plank. If water gets into the wood, the wood softens and can rot. If that happens, the keelbolts don't have anything solid holding them any longer. If that is the problem (and I am only guessing), then the boat has to come out of the water, the bilge has to be dried, then you have to strengthen or replace that piece of wood. If that plank has lost its mass or rigidity, then the keel could be moving slightly when the boat is heeled, opening a crack and allowing water into the bilge. If you are lucky, there might be a fairly easy way to strengthen it, but you should discuss that with Catalina.

Good luck!

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - Steve Milby on 11/04/2002 15:19:56

Edited by - Steve Milby on 11/04/2002 15:25:50

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2002 : 19:40:41

Margaret,

Welcome to the C25 family. They (c25's and c250's) are wonderful boats and the owners come together kinda like a family. So, welcome!

My knee jerk reaction to your post was to the word "screws." I hope that your keel not attached with screws, but with bolts.

Wiser people than I might be able to diagnose what's happening. But I have a few questions:

1. Is the bilge dry when you first get on the boat? I assume so, but its somethoing needs to be asked.
2. Have you had someone go do below and watch what's happening while you're sailing? I'm assuming it leaks on both tacks, but I suppose that's not necessrily the case.
3. How much water is coming into the bilge? Is there more water in heavier conditions? Or, is the amount about the same regardless of condition?
4. Have you talked to "a professional" about the situation - either your marina operator or your surveyor. The guy who did mine said that if I had any problems I could come back for more information. I think he would be a good one to talk with. I'd agree with Steve that he sould have been asking the questions about the glop on the keel bolts.

If Steve's guess is correct and the piece of wood to which the keel is bolted is rotten, I'd think you are at risk of a keel failure, and it dropping off. While Steve is only guessing, the consequences of not doing something warrents decisive action, in my opinion.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

FrankV
Navigator

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USA
135 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2002 : 22:10:46

We had a persistent bilge filling leak, (now that sounds pretty bad!) that we could not solve. It only happened under sail. I replaced the rudder, pintles and started on the lower gudgeons and found them to be loosely attached. We replaced the bolts with bigger ones, thoroughly re-bedded the gudgeon, and applied silicone around the cockpit scuppers.

The bilge has been dry ever since! Under sail, these loose openings can siphon an amazing amount of water in a short time.

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2002 : 09:25:50

Hi Margaret,
Welcome aboard the problem solving board. You've been given lots of good info here and I think Frank V's point is well taken and would be my first choice repair. It is perhaps the simplest to accomplish. Also Cat 25s squat when pushed hard and that's when the lower gudgeon goes under water. If the keel bolts were the problem the water might likely enter at all times as well as when heeled.

My very best wishes for an easy solution and many years of happy sailing

Val on "CALISTA" # 3936

Val Bisagni

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2984 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2002 : 10:05:52

Not knowing much about the C25, I don't know if a swingers mounting bolts protrude and if Magaret could have a swing....if so, there has often been mention of aquiring water in the bilge following backing the boat. This thru the hose surrounding the keel cable.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

Edited by - on

Margaret
Deckhand

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USA
2 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2002 : 11:44:58

That is correct!

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2002 : 11:57:34

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
That is correct!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Then I'm with Frank V.

If you have access to a dingy or better yet a rubber raft you could even get away with leaving your boat in the water. I'd recommend using a polysulfide to rebed the gudgeon. There are a number of prior threads on replacing/rebedding this very item.

Always feel free to ask questions Maragret . . .

Edited by - OJ on 11/05/2002 12:03:49

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2002 : 18:16:45

Margaret,

Have you checked under the vee berth to see if water is collecting there? If so, it may find it's way to the bilge only when you heel the boat. Water can collect there from a leaky anchor locker as well as from leaks around the stancheons, the foredeck "skylight," etc.

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

Edited by - on

tdannar
1st Mate

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USA
25 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2002 : 00:30:40

Margaret,

I too have a 1980 FK/SR and fought a similar problem for a couple of months before solving it.

Mystery water in the bilge drove me nuts. I had removed and re-bedded all of the windows and had caulked everything on the topside. The boat would sit dry, even in a downpour. After returning to the boat several days later I would check the bilge to make sure it wasn’t leaking and I would find everything dry. After going out for a sail, when we returned, there would be water in the bilge. I too thought it was the keel leaking. I noticed that some time there would be more water than others, and some time, no water at all. I could never see moisture leading to the bilge, therefore, thought it was the keel bolts.

One afternoon, I was doing some rewiring and was accessing the area under the aft berth when I noticed some dampness running the length of the skeg from the transom to the bilge area. Following up on this I found one of the fasteners that hold the lower gudgeon (bracket that attaches the rudder to the transom) to be VERY loose. I could see that the dampness in the skeg started at the transom. There were no cracks in the fiberglass and the loose fastener was directly above the skeg.

I then went out for a sail. I noticed that when motoring out of the marina, the transom goes down and these fasteners are under water (or nearly underwater) with water building up against the rudder. The water apparently weeps past the fastener, trails down the inside of the skeg and ends up in the bilge. It was then that I realized when I sailed out/sailed back, no water. When wind was light and I motored, WATER. The more I motored, the MORE WATER would end up in the bilge.

Remove each fastener on the lower gudgeon and apply sealant to each one and to the gudgeon. This will involve going headfirst into the aft berth and removing the small wooden access cover. You will be able to see the nuts and may see dampness below them. Hopefully this will solve your problem.

Terry Dannar

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2002 : 09:14:07

Margaret,

Your response to Arlyn,"that's correct", has got me. Do you have a swing? And the, "loose screws", not on a swing or you have a problem I don't understand.

Val on "CALISTA" # 3936
Patchogue, N.Y.

Val Bisagni

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2984 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2002 : 09:27:11

Val, I think her answer "that's correct" was to an earlier question "you have a fin, correct?"

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2002 : 10:35:09

I agree with the lower gudgeon diagnosis. BTW, on ours, water under the v-berth can't migrate to the bilge. But when we had it, the inner flange of the anchor locker drain tube was the source. A swipe of silicone around the edge nailed it. I also was getting rain water that appeard to be entering around the flange of the cockpit drains through the transom. (Thankfully, I don't have the skuppers.) Polysulfide (better than silicone in the sun) around the edges seems to have stopped it.

The war goes on...

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/06/2002 : 12:39:40

Hindsight is always 20/20 . . . seems that we may have inadvertently given Maragaret worst case senario first . . . possibly causing some undue alarm for a newbie . . .

Let us know what you found Margaret!

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2002 : 18:32:08

Dave,

In regards to water moving from vee berth to bilge: I think the path the water took in my boat was through the hole I drilled to route the depth finder transducer wire. I mounted the transducer under the vee berth. It only flowed when I was heeled well to starboard.

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

Edited by - on

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