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The boat is almost worthless now!

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unclaimed baggage
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/18/2010 : 20:51:38

ok this might be long winded but the humor factor might be worth your reading time. I have have one of the worst luck days that i can ever remember. It all started with a flutter in the rudder. I ordered new pintles and gudeons. Then a day later remembered that i needed the cover plate, extra shipping; the project is already off to a great start. They said i would need a 4" hole saw. i have one so no need to rent theirs, I recive the plate and it is 8" across. SOB! Who measures a radius everything is measured in diameter. I later figure out that they sen t me the wrong one and we got it corrected.

Off to the boat I go (hour drive each way). I measure, drill a pilot hole, cut an appropriate depth and try to take the hole out, nothing. drill further. Hit it with heavy tool, nothing. Drill very dangerously deep and still nothing, hit it again VERY hard and finally it comes out. The shear TERROR BEGINS!

Without ever seeing a pic or knowing the thickness of the transcom I have been fooled by a rouge overflow of putty like material gluing the hole to both sides of the transom and almost cutting completely through the other side.

In panic I see the the only thing left is the gelcoat and 1/2 a layer of fiberglass. The local opinion agrees with my recovery plan to fill the cut with thickened glass epoxy and put a 1/4 brass plate across the whole thing. I challenge any of you to come up with a 4"x6"x1/4" brass plate. I had to drive an 1h 30min each way to get it.

Back at the boat with help, new brass plate drilled and tapped to match the gudeons. It wont fit in the 4" hole! WTF!!!!!! It is to long,or the space between is not deep enough. However you want to look at it. At this point if I had a shotgun I would have started shooting the keel off it from the cabin.

ok I have pics if it will help anyone see what I have done, thanks to the folks at Catalina for their overflow gluing both sides of the transom together.

anyway new plan that i am thinking here is to fill the groove with glass/cotton thickend epoxy. Then replace the brass bar but extend it out over into good fiberglass beyond the cut. once that is done glass a triangle rod on the top half across the cut for strength. Then sheet the entire thing in epoxy glass. I am worried about ripping the hole out with the gudeon in heavy winds.

Now have your laugh and at the end of it all. If you have something to help I'd like to hear. Even if it is, "Good idea on the shotgun!"

Eric F Martinez
1985 Fix keel, Tall rig

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2010 : 04:48:23

Hey.. It's not wood with rot.. Glass builds up really well. You might want to get someone that does glass work to finish the job. Either way resin is hard stuff and will fill that hole with plenty of strength. I wouldn't get freaked out about it, you are just in the middle of a job and it feels bad right now. Breath deep, review your options, get specific advice and move forward with the project. Be Strong!

Easy for me to say and IMHO. Hang in there, you still have one of the best sailboats ever made.

Lets see....
My Sears Supergamefisher 12 foot fiberglass boat had cracks on both sides of the back of the transom. I'd glass the cracks over and I had not prepaired the locations for the patches properly and the patches would slowly release and come off with time. I'd repatch. Used the boat for 20 years.

The Starcraft 17 ft aluminum boat had a crack on the bottom in front of the transom. I added structural supports from the back seat to the transom, but the bottom would flex when you powered up and the crack would reopen even though I would seal it with bondo. We added a 1100 gph bilge pump and then we had a shower on the boat. Used the boat for 20+ years, and would still be using it if a tree had not fallen on it.

The Southcoast 22 sailboat had a de-laminated hull on one side that would oilcan if you stepped on it. Held water in the hull. Never did get that fixed. Used the boat for 20+ years.

What was the quote? Perfect is the enemy of good.

Edited by - on

OJ
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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2010 : 05:10:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by unclaimed baggage
 

Off to the boat I go (hour drive each way) . . . I had to drive an 1h 30min each way to get it . . . <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I grew tired of walking so far (retrieveing tools, refreshments, products, snacks) so I moved the boat a good 25' closer to the house

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Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2010 : 05:17:47

STOP,STOP,STOP. Take a deep breath.

One nice thing about fiberglass boats is that they are infinitely repairable. If I read this correctly, you almost cut through the outer hull, correct? Believe it or not, this is not the end of the world. It's just gonna take a lot more work and be prepared, your gonna learn a lot more about repairing boats. However, anybody that owns a 4" hole saw is not inept and you can do this. <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The local opinion agrees with my recovery plan to fill the cut with thickened glass epoxy and put a 1/4 brass plate across the whole thing.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I don't agree with this. You need to repair the cut glass fibers, not just fill it with goo. The glass fibers need to be replaced, not substituted with thickened epoxy.

First step is get a good book on fiberglass boat repairs and read. Believe it or not, it's easy. Gooey but easy.
Forget the big piece of brass. There is no need for it. Repair the fiberglass correctly, bolt the gudgeon through the transom with some good backing plates. It will be fine.
The only reason for a big piece of brass is so you can bolt through the transom without nuts on the inside. You can get to the inside now so you don't need the brass plate any more.
Do you need some backing plates? I can send you some.
Dan

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2010 : 05:20:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I grew tired of walking so far (retrieveing tools, refreshments, products, snacks) so I moved the boat a good 25' closer to the house<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I getting so tired of going up and down the ladder, I'm thinking of digging a big hole in the ground and making the deck flush with the grass.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2010 : 07:38:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Happy D
 I getting so tired of going up and down the ladder, I'm thinking of digging a big hole in the ground and making the deck flush with the grass.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's the old S. Pacific typhoon-hole trick.

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unclaimed baggage
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2010 : 07:55:38

Happy D,

I never thought about grinding out the whole mess and re glassing the the whole mess out. The thickened epoxy idea came from that is what was on hand from my cedar strip kayak making days.

As to the brass bar, both top and bottom have a brass bar that the bolts thread through and then also have bolts. I assumed this was distribute the load better across the glass.

Really am starting to laugh about yesterday now,others items that added to the mix:

got pulled over on the brass run.

drill press broke a bit and scattered several others, they're lost.

dismantling everything my girlfriend asks, "do you want me to hold those?" I said no I have a zip lock to put them in. During reassembly, I am missing hardware. There was a hole in the bag and they fell through the dock. Grrrrr I wont even tell you her response.

Having the rudder off the boat and on the slip, hanging off the end so not to wear off the bottom paint, a sailor of size comes down the dock with his similar sized gang. Tiller gets bounced off the dock, (keep in mind I am always the only one ever there within 25 boats. I am down below finish the lower gudeon and notice the empty dock. a quick scan finds the rudder out past the marina. Water is to cold to swim yet. Anyone ever try using the boat no rudder and motor? At least I snagged it on the first try.

Lime on the Margarita at dinner squirted me in both eyes!

I will stop the whining here, but the day sucked!

Edited by - on

farrison
Navigator

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USA
166 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2010 : 09:07:50

Taking the deep breath is good advise. This damage is not insurmountable. The co-owner of my boat ran the boat onto the rocks and nearly tore the bottom gudgeon clean off. The outer skin and foam core were trashed and had to be removed. I reglassed the hole on the outside, and added several plies of glass over the repair area on the inside, larger than the damaged area. I got rid of the brass plate and also added a 1/8" treated plywood "cushion" between the fender washers/nuts and the new glass cloth. Like you, I was a little concerned about the compromised structure so I used it as an excuse to add the third gudgeon I had read about in the forum. Now my only worry is that if the rudder gets banged on the rocks again, it will tear the whole transom of the boat.

Paul

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aeckhart
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1709 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2010 : 10:36:26

Relax, I ran into a similar problem with the top gudgeon on my boat. Not quite, but similar. After I repaired the transom I through-bolted the gudgeon with a 1/4" thick aluminum backing plate. It's been solid for 8 years.

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unclaimed baggage
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2010 : 11:05:48

ok I am looking at grinding it out, and relaying glass. Does anyone know what Catalina used? Polyester or vinyl? Can I use epoxy since that is what i have on hand?

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Voyager
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5376 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2010 : 15:17:45

Eric
You might want to check out West System's very informative web advice - it will give you a lot of info about the best practices on the job, and good pictures too.

I prefer a BOOK - yes, it is an archaic concept - but I like it because I can re-read portions again and again and the pictures are usually well documented.

Don Casey's "This old boat" is a classic, and his more current "Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual" is available on Amazon and in many public libraries. The books discuss how to lay in glass for strength with epoxy or resins (epoxy is more expensive, but easier to work), and how to "finish" the repairs. Saran wrap!

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2010 : 16:52:39

You should use epoxy. Polyester resin is a laminating resin and it makes a terrible glue. It will de-bond over time and that is the wrong place to have a de-bond take place. If you use West Systems epoxy and cure it real well, you can spray gelcoat over the epoxy and it will be perfect.
The nice part about repairing the glass is you can add a course or two and really beef it up and never worry about it again.
My advice, grind it out, repair the fiberglass, fair it on the outside and paint it with primer. Go sailing for the season and repair the gelcoat in the fall or next spring before you launch it. That will let the epoxy cure for sure!
Don't finish it with paint, DO the gelcoat. We can guide you through it.
In the mean time get Don Casey's book on [url="http://www.amazon.com/dp/0070133697"]Sailboat Hull and Deck Repair[/url]

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2010 : 16:56:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">As to the brass bar, both top and bottom have a brass bar that the bolts thread through and then also have bolts. I assumed this was distribute the load better across the glass. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Actually they put a piece of brass inside the fiberglass so they didn't have to put nuts on the bolts on the inside.
You've already got a big big hole in the transom, nix the brass and use a backing plate and nuts. My two cents.

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2010 : 21:10:01

I'm not getting a good mental picture. How will you grind the transom through a 4" hole?
Ed

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Happy D
Admiral

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Response Posted - 05/20/2010 : 04:38:20

I'd repair it from the outside.
I'd cut the hole all the way through then fix it.

Edited by - Happy D on 05/20/2010 04:42:05

unclaimed baggage
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 05/20/2010 : 06:57:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ed Cassidy
 I'm not getting a good mental picture. How will you grind the transom through a 4" hole?
Ed
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I was thinking about a small angle grinder. I have an attachment to a rotozip that is a grinding wheel. I was going to stuff news paper (the other archaic method) wrapped in saran to catch the dust and glass then vaccuum the up after. Reglass the oops then glass 2 panels over the enitrething to help hold it all together. while the two panels are still soft put the brass bar back in and the let it self seat.

If i wanted to go over board take another 2 panels and glass over the bar. That would provide more rigidity then ever neccesary.

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pastmember
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Response Posted - 05/20/2010 : 07:37:23

Take the brass plate to a place where they inscribe trophies, think of something clever. Do your glass repair and put the brass plate on the inside of the cockpit, through bolt through the brass plate, finish with nice acorn nuts. You could copy the info from the original Catalina aluminum plate to the brass plate. You might find a fun brass plate to use.
I bought several on ebay, this one says welcome aboard:

this one says Captin's quarters:

Edited by - on

farrison
Navigator

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USA
166 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2010 : 09:32:14

Eric;

I used a small, air powered angle grinder to rough up the inner surface of my transom so the epoxy would bond to it. If you have an air compresser you can buy the angle grinder and a one and one half inch diameter hard rubber disc on a shaft that will hold both sanding and scotch-brite discs that you should be able to get into the 4" hole. I got both a Harbor Freight for a resonable cost. Teh disc might even fit your roto-Zip tool. As for the patch thickness, you may want more than two plies of glass, depending on how heavy it is, but you should end up with 1/16" to 1/8" inch thick panel over the repair. I would not cut the hole all the way through unless it is the last resort for repair. Smoothing and re-gel coating is much more involved. If you can save that outer skin on the transom, I would try.

Paul

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unclaimed baggage
1st Mate

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45 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2010 : 10:33:24

ok here is the new plan for the moment. i have the cover plate for the cockpit and the back of the transom gelcoat is unscathed at the moment. I will rough the surface fill the groove from the hole saw with epoxy and glass fiber. Then glass the entire are about 6-8" to bond the repair to the transom. Replace the brass bar. Seal cover plate, make sure beer is still cold. the repair will not bee seen unless you open the inspection plate. I plan on doing next week so let me hear your thoughts.

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Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2010 : 15:36:44

Sounds like a good plan. Use 1708 biaxial fabric with a stitched mat. Real strong stuff, made to be used with epoxy.
[url="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/fiberglass-cloth-Biaxial-Mat-1708-5-yds-50-wide-45-00-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem335d151103QQitemZ220604993795QQptZBoatQ5fPartsQ5fAccessoriesQ5fGear"]1708 Biax[/url]

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unclaimed baggage
1st Mate

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USA
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Response Posted - 05/26/2010 : 21:48:22

Ok after a couple days at the boat it is stronger than new now. Thanks for talking me off the ledge.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 05/28/2010 : 04:24:42

Dude.. That Rocks...

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 05/28/2010 : 09:49:40

Frank, who did the cushions in your second photo above? They look fabulous.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 05/28/2010 : 12:01:15

Yepper.. Frank has the touch.. I just love that image of the captns quarters.

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unclaimed baggage
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2010 : 09:51:41

Got back from sailing this weekend and the fix is great, The problem is that the rudder still has a flutter in it. It is much smaller than before but still there. Am I down to only a new rudder now?

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