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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Swing Rudder for a Swing Keel?

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dflynnatc
1st Mate

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USA
65 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/19/2010 : 11:18:40

Newbie here. Have read with interest many, many postings. Thank you for your knowledge and willingness to share.

Other than small American 14.6 and limited on water experience, I jumped in with both feet recently for a 1979 swing keel 25'. Purchased with family property in the Chesapeake in mind. While it allows free dockage, it has just the minimum water necessary at low tide.

I have searched to see a suitable posting, but didn't come up with one, so here is my first post/question.

It appears that the rudder draws greater depth thus requiring it to be removed prior to leaving the boat/or low tide to avoid damage. It appears that this may have been a problem in the past as there seems to be some spidering/stress of the gelcoat around the lower gudgeon. This increases interest in preventing further damage.

Has anyone found a simper solution to utilize rather then removing the rudder and pulling it on-board? I have considered just "bowling" out around where the rudder would ground, but wasn't sure that would suffice for all situations/weather. Thanks

Dennis

Dennis Flynn
1979 C-25 SR/SK
Hull 1042
Rock Hall,MD
Via
Skippack, PA

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2010 : 11:44:13

Dennis, welcome to the forum and congratulations on your new boat. A couple of things come to mind here.

I assume by "bowling out", you mean to dredge the bottom to an adequate depth. While that is certainly possible, it will require repeated efforts and expense do to rise and fall of the tides as well as current dropping sediment back into the "bowl".

I'd think your best option would be a [url="http://www.idasailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=33&products_id=462"]kick-up rudder[/url]. It's designed for beaching the boat so, it would certainly meet your needs.

Would it be possible for you to drop a mooring in deeper water? Probably a more expensive option than the kick-up though.

Oh, yeah, buy [url="http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=3"]this[/url]. It's a Catalina 25 handyman's resource.

Before purchasing the rudder, you shold consider joining the association. There may be a discount available to members. Best $22 you'll ever spend on your boat.

Edited by - on

Unsinkable2
Captain

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USA
273 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2010 : 12:01:54

I just put the idasailor kickup rudder on my boat. WOW, what a difference! (I had the standard rudder before.) The balanced nature of the rudder is seriously like suddenly getting power steering. The bigger difference for me though was how easily the rudder held its centered position. I was single handing in 15+mph winds and had to go forward - I didn't even need to rig something to hold the tiller in position, it just balanced itself.

I will rig some kind of tiller tamer for the future, but I was very impressed with the idasailor kickup rudder. Will be testing it out in Lake Mead this summer, where we put the bow right up on the beach at night. The rudder has an easy cord and gas shock that makes swinging the rudder up very simple. It also handles unexpected encounters with underwater obstacles by swinging quickly up - and then the little gas shock pushes the rudder back into position automatically.

(By the way, anyone looking for a replacement original style rudder?)

Edited by - on

dflynnatc
1st Mate

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USA
65 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2010 : 12:48:54

John, wow.... didn't anticipate such a realtime response.... thank you.

RE: Association ~I have already joined the association and look forward to my first copy of Mainsheet.

RE: Mooring, have already purchased ball off of Craigslist in anticipation of adding it sooner than later. Minimally, wouldn't confine me to returning prior to lowtide, and just move the boat when convenient. (I may be asking more questions regarding same in the near future)

RE: Kick Up rudder. Way Cool! But possibly a bit more than I want to chew on right now. That is approaching 1/3rd the price I paid for boat (which isn't a bad thing depending on how you look at it)

_New Question_: Why would the mooring be more expensive than the k/u rudder? (based on the $949.00 for the rudder) I must be missing something? I paid $10 for the ball; $20 for 30' of heavy anchor chain and am considering dropping an old house radiator :-). Kidding about radiator....(unless people do it all the time). Looking for SOP for setting a mooring.

Would it be possible for you to drop a mooring in deeper water? Probably a more expensive option than the kick-up though.

Oh, yeah, buy [url="http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=3"]this[/url]. It's a Catalina 25 handyman's resource.

Before purchasing the rudder, you shold consider joining the association. There may be a discount available to members. Best $22 you'll ever spend on your boat.
[/quote]

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2010 : 13:11:21

I'm actually guessing about the mooring cost but I think you'll need a lot more weight than the average radiator in the event of a good storm. I'm thinking a ton of concrete?????????? I'm at a slip on the Lake Erie so have no experience with moorings.

BTW, BOAT is an acronym. It means Break Out Another Thousand. There is an old adage that a $10,000 boat will cost $10,000 no matter what you paid for it up front.

Keep your eye out for a used one but, I can't recall seeing one posted here. Maybe Craigslist/EBay???

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2010 : 17:23:37

Re: "New Question: Why would the mooring be more expensive than the k/u rudder? (based on the $949.00 for the rudder) I must be missing something? I paid $10 for the ball; $20 for 30' of heavy anchor chain and am considering dropping an old house radiator :-). Kidding about radiator....(unless people do it all the time). Looking for SOP for setting a mooring."

I know you said you were kidding about using an old radiator for a mooring, but I'll still take this opportunity to say to anyone contemplating a DIY mooring, please do a good job. Do not just toss the heaviest piece of junk you can down there and expect it to work. At least ask around and look at what's used by pros in your area. (Not just crusty oldtimers, professionals.) A couple suggestions would be a cast concrete version of the commercially available giant mushroom mooring anchor. Another might be a cast slab of concrete. Like an anchor, there's more to a good mooring than brute mass.

A couple of other things to keep in mind.

Wear And Tear: Think about the effect of years of jerking, chafe, and corrosion on the attachment point of the weight. You're probably going to end up using steel, but use plenty of it.

Anchor Fouling: Have some mercy on any hapless soul whose anchor fetches up against your mooring. Don't put a giant anchor trap down there. (I once hooked what seemed to be a large air compressor or ancient refrigeration unit in murky Hope Town harbor in Elbow Cay. I had some unkind thoughts towards whoever put it down as a mooring.)

Rebar: Make appropriate use of rebar in your concrete to reinforce the attachment point.

-- Leon Sisson

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dflynnatc
1st Mate

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USA
65 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2010 : 18:44:46

John, Heard the BOAT one before, but not the 10K comment. I can see that it has some merit. Will have to do some homework prior to this project if we choose to Do it ourselves. But as famous oil well firefighter Red Adair is attributed to have said " If you think it's expensive to hire a professional..... wait until you hire an amateur" <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 I'm actually guessing about the mooring cost but I think you'll need a lot more weight than the average radiator in the event of a good storm. I'm thinking a ton of concrete?????????? I'm at a slip on the Lake Erie so have no experience with moorings.

BTW, BOAT is an acronym. It means Break Out Another Thousand. There is an old adage that a $10,000 boat will cost $10,000 no matter what you paid for it up front.

Keep your eye out for a used one but, I can't recall seeing one posted here. Maybe Craigslist/EBay???
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

dflynnatc
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
65 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2010 : 18:51:01

Question about the kick up rudder..... obviously it will kick up if there is boat forward motion that kicks it up as it is grounded. But curious; if the rudders are _down_ and the boat is stationary, will they kick up? or will they just "load" vertically and also cause damage to rudder/gudgeon/pintle or transom? Probably not a large problem, but as they say, not hard to remember to do; just easy to forget......

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 Dennis, welcome to the forum and congratulations on your new boat. A couple of things come to mind here.

I assume by "bowling out", you mean to dredge the bottom to an adequate depth. While that is certainly possible, it will require repeated efforts and expense do to rise and fall of the tides as well as current dropping sediment back into the "bowl".

I'd think your best option would be a [url="http://www.idasailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=33&products_id=462"]kick-up rudder[/url]. It's designed for beaching the boat so, it would certainly meet your needs.

Would it be possible for you to drop a mooring in deeper water? Probably a more expensive option than the kick-up though.

Oh, yeah, buy [url="http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=3"]this[/url]. It's a Catalina 25 handyman's resource.

Before purchasing the rudder, you shold consider joining the association. There may be a discount available to members. Best $22 you'll ever spend on your boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2010 : 19:32:40

the kick-up rudders need some forward motion to force them up and counteract the springs holding them in the operating position...you'll need to remember to flip it up...of course it begs the question, that when approaching the dock at a dead low or spring tide, how do you steer?? you might need to come in with just the O/B...

Edited by - on

Frank Law
Navigator

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USA
159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2010 : 19:32:48

Regarding mooring in shallow water...I remove my rudder every time I come back from sailing. The tiller and rudder are bolted together and I just remove a safety pin ??? and lift the whole asembly off and put it in the cabin. The combo balances easy by holding the upper pintle,, probably takes 3 minutes to remove and stow.. The hardest part is installing it if the boat is swinging on the mooring..
I built my own Mushroom anchor --by hollowing out a dish shape in the ground , placing some plastic in the hollow , then adding 80# bag of concrete. The shaft was made out of 1 " steel rod which an Amish guy formed an eye and bent the bottom into an L shape.. While the concrete was wet I pushed the shaft into the mud and suspended it there till the concrete set.. This has held my 25' cat for 9 years.. I"m in 2.5--4.5 ' of Chesapeake tidal water and very soft mud!!!

Edited by - on

Unsinkable2
Captain

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USA
273 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2010 : 05:23:40

Dennis, Jerry is right, the kickup rudder would only kick up when encountering an object while moving forward. When I head into shallow water where I will be beaching the boat, I raise the rudder first. I haven't been in a situation where a lowering tide would drop the boat straight down onto the rudder, but yes, you would need to remember to lower it before leaving the boat.

As far as navigating with the rudder up, use the outboard. Responsiveness while turning is a little more sluggish with the rudder up, but then again, you're already used to compensating for sluggish turning once you raise the swing keel. When navigating at low speed around a dock, I find that turning the outboard produces sharper turns that the rudder anyway, since the rudder requires more steerageway to turn the boat.

Edited by - on

mlg3733
Navigator

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118 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2010 : 12:40:59

I am not sure of the point of the kickup rudder in this case: the standard rudder just about draws the same as the keel when the keel is up, within an inch or two. If the keel clears whatever obstacle, so does the rudder. The stress cracks around the gudgeon come from wear and tear and old age, not so much from the rudder hitting anything at low tide. My boat has them and it has spend the past 30 years in more than enough water. As to the mooring you'll need a 200# mushroom anchor, with the proper length and size of chains and a couple swivels, I have seen boats dragging their mooring in storms and the damage they have inflicted on themselves and other boats when that did happen, it is not worth the few hundred dollars you'll save by not using a proper mooring setup, look around on Craigslist or in the local marinas and boat basins.

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Unsinkable2
Captain

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USA
273 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2010 : 13:01:07

I'm not sure the rudder draft is the same as the keel up draft. I haven't measured them, but I know whenever I pull up to a beach or shallow water with the swing keel up, it's the rudder that contacts ground first.

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dflynnatc
1st Mate

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USA
65 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2010 : 15:00:48

Maybe it is an idiosyncrasy of my location, but definitely the rudder is grounding at the same time, if not first (or possibly just very noticeably). Possibly the keel is creating it's own well? And since I haven't had the rudder on, it isn't creating it's own?

My attenae are already up for the mooring- new to me- equipment.

Continued thanks -to all- for digesting this scenario with me.
df
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mlg3733
 I am not sure of the point of the kickup rudder in this case: the standard rudder just about draws the same as the keel when the keel is up, within an inch or two. If the keel clears whatever obstacle, so does the rudder. The stress cracks around the gudgeon come from wear and tear and old age, not so much from the rudder hitting anything at low tide. My boat has them and it has spend the past 30 years in more than enough water. As to the mooring you'll need a 200# mushroom anchor, with the proper length and size of chains and a couple swivels, I have seen boats dragging their mooring in storms and the damage they have inflicted on themselves and other boats when that did happen, it is not worth the few hundred dollars you'll save by not using a proper mooring setup, look around on Craigslist or in the local marinas and boat basins.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Unsinkable2
Captain

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USA
273 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2010 : 15:02:09

sounds like the rudders vary in length

Edited by - on

Unsinkable2
Captain

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USA
273 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2010 : 06:04:01

I pulled my boat this weekend for a road trip, and noted that the idasailor kickup rudder IS a few inches deeper than the swing keel in the up position. I realize that this doesn't matter because its a kickup rudder, but just thought I'd mention it.

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