Association Forum - Around Catalina Race

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Around Catalina Race - photos added!

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

JimB517
Past Commodore

Member Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/31/2010 : 16:04:58

Hi we are all back from the Around Catalina Race. Friday I was driven up to Dana Point and we delivered the Catalina 27 Carpe Domani up to the port of Los Angeles. It was about a 30 mile passage that started out motoring in calm seas and ended with 25 knots on the nose and taking spray over the cockpit.

The boat handled it well. This is a former inboard converted to an outboard in the well. The Catalina 27 is a much better boat than the 25. It is heavier, less tender, and carries a lot more sail area. You can stand up inside. The cabin/salon is much better laid out. Since the boat is so much wider, there is a lot more room. The cockpit is huge and the cockpit lockers work (not like our nearly useless dumpsters). The woodwork inside is much nicer with a real hanging locker, and head. The V berth is about the same, probably smaller, but all I ever use it for is storing sailbags and that was the case on this boat. The quarter berth seems smaller on the Cat 27 as well. But the salon is so much bigger.

There is a real aft traveller, the side decks are actually wide enough to walk on. You don't have to worry about breaking off the pintles and gudegons, and the outboard won't come crashing down in when falling off a big wave.

On the downsides the outboard well is very difficult to get to, the motor pretty much requires remote controls and electric start. Also the outboard well was very wet, fuel tanks were floating and it was perpetually swamped. There is no way to steer the outboard. It would be nearly impossible to start it with a pull cord.

Although the boat felt much heavier, more sturdy and more powerful, I doubt it was much faster. I think if I'd been racing Indiscipline I would have been right with them all the way. The Cat 27 rates 208 so 20 seconds/mile faster. All in all I'd like to strip my 25, sink it, and you can buy a 27 around here for about $1500 (this one was purchased for $500). Then build that one up. However, for what that would cost in the end getting to racing form I could buy an Olson 30 or J29 and be much happier. I mean there is a full race ready Olson 30 here for sale for $16K. That boat could go to Hawaii at 15 knots.

On to the race.

After the intense winds of Friday and a small craft advisory all Friday night race day dawned hot, calm and bright. By the start we had winds about 5 knots. We had to tack a couple of times to get out Angles gate. After an hour it became apparant that we could not lay the west end of the island so we decided to tack and head back in to Palos Verde penninsula. There we found huge winds that caused us first to reef, then to change to a #2 jib. That got us out of the zone of being right on the edge of rounding up all the time. Indiscipline has mid boom sheeting so it is a simple matter to dump the main. This boat has the transom boom sheeting like is stock on the 25s so when you are going over it is virtually impossible for the helm to get to the mainsheet. That would be my first mod on a C27 and its the best mod you can do on your 25 as well. The lines are much better organized on my boat for single handing and safety.

A couple of hours later we changed back to the number 1 jib and had a nice close reach out to the island in 15 knots +. We reached the west end a little east and had to take a couple of short tacks. As we got to the end, the wind died. We were within 200 yards of 2 race boats and had 10 race boats in sight. It took us 3 hours to go the next 1/2 mile and get around the end of the island. We put up the wind seeker and drifted, once in a while moving a couple of hundred yards on a puff.

By dark we were still drifting down the back side, now with only 1 boat in sight. About 9 PM a light SE head wind came up and we started tacking. We were making about 2 to 3 knots, sometimes up to 4 and down to 1. We started 2 hours on, 2 hours off rotation. I got us past Catalina Harbor, and little Harbor and right up to Ben Westin point. I then went to bed, which was lying on a bunch of sail bags on the floor in my full foulies. I fell right asleep. When I got up I had the 3:30 to 5:30 watch and the East end was in sight. It took us 2 more watch rotations to clear the East end and get around the island. The wind fell to nothing. I worked every puff while practically sleeping at the helm in between.

Around 8 I got up for the next watch rotation and made coffee, grabbed breakfast, and came on deck for duty. The East end was still there. But a little wind came up and we finally put it behind us. After that we stopped the rotation and we had a beat back to Dana Point in about 8 to 9 knots of wind. We finished just after 2 PM. Dead last and so late they called the wives and home yacht clubs to see where we were. Wife said "they are doing a race around Catalina". Finished in 26 hours, averaged 2.9 knots.

Very hard to believe that we could sail 75 miles (more like 100 over the water) and have head winds on all 3 legs, and never go up spin once.

Sunday afternoon we cleaned up an enormous mess, rerigged delivery sails, and had a big pizza for dinner.

I'm glad I did it. It was a very difficult challenge, much harder than something like San Diego - Ensenada because that is all down wind. I got good sea test of a Cat 27. While I really like it, it is not worth the effort to change from a C25 to a C27. I like doing this and I want to do more but I've got to get a fast boat that can plane down wind yet still have sleeping, eating, and living accomodations.

Photos Added!

Click here for more:

http://www.indiscipline.org/cat25/roundcat10.html

Indiscipline 1978 FK SR #398

Edited by - JimB517 on 06/05/2010 10:00:26

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2010 : 19:11:24

There's a Capri 30 docked in Mission Bay for sale on Ebay, if you are interested in moving up.
A friend of mine had a Cat 27 with the o/b in the well. I raced with him some; the boat was fun. I was under the impression that the C25 was actually a bit faster, I guess it all depends on the sailing conditions. For coastal sailing, I think the larger, heavier C27 might be a better choice, but for lake sailing in lighter air, I'll side with the C25.

Edited by - dmpilc on 05/31/2010 19:15:10

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2010 : 19:22:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 ...The Catalina 27 is a much better boat than the 25...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Aw, come on, Jim--it's a different boat, not built for trailering.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">All in all I'd like to strip my 25, sink it, and you can buy a 27 around here for about $1500 (this one was purchased for $500).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Whoa! Harsh!

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2010 : 19:26:02

I'd like to do that but never would.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2010 : 21:34:23

I looked at the Mission Bay Capri 30. Very nice. I may have to go look at her in person.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2010 : 06:36:02

The Capri 30 rates 60-70 seconds faster than the C-30...

With displacement under 5000 lbs. (literally half that of a C-30), I wonder about her as an ocean racer, and assume she has a balsa-cored hull.

(You said you liked the C-27 for its heavier feel.) Would you be able to race with your All Catalina group in SD, or would they say that's no-fairsies?

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/01/2010 07:28:39

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2010 : 07:34:30

I left the camera on the boat so its going to be a few days until I get the race photos up.

Since I never trailer, don't have a trailer, don't have a truck, spend a lot of nights aboard, single hand all over the place, race, cruise, daysail, the Cat 27 would have been a better choice for me in the first place. It would fit in my same slip.

However, if I bought one 6 years ago, I'd probably be right where I am now. Wanting to do ocean races in a fast boat. Single handed or double handed. Plane off the wind.

I wish I could get out on a Capri 30, see how she sails and handles the wind and waves. I like the boat and the price. I wish I had some money (2 girls in college).

I suppose the Catalina club would let me race in a Capri 30. What I would do is set her up for long distance ocean races. I would probalbly never race in the local Beer Cans - it seems to me to be so dangerous and very likely that you'll have some sort of damaging collision - everyone I know has had something. The local Bay race scene is just as bad. I just can't afford that risk. It is better to crew for someone (I'm crewing on a Cat 30 in this year's Beer Cans).

But I could put together about a 10 or 12 race season with all ocean races, and add on 11 Catalina Association races. Also day sail most every day and do a long vacation cruise once per year.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2010 : 08:28:55

I agree generally with Jim's assessment of the C27 vs the C25 except the comment that the C7 is a much better boat than the C25. The C25 is a considerably newer design than the C27, and some changes were made that improved the C25's sailing ability over that of the C27.

I believe the C25's phrf rating is much too low for 2 reasons. First, not many C25s are seriously raced by skilled racers, so the boat's real sailing abilities aren't reflected in it's rating. Unskilled boat drivers make for poor ratings. Secondly, there's still a bias against Catalinas in the minds of the raters. Because they don't see many well-raced Catalinas, they don't take them seriously when rating them. Lots of C27s are seriously raced, so the raters respect them. Few C25s are raced seriously, so the raters don't respect them. The C25 is rated slower than the C27, but, as Jim also surmises, the C25 is a faster boat.

I wish I still had my old C25 here on the Chesapeake Bay, because I don't doubt that it would open the eyes of the raters with regard to the sailing ability of the C25. I'd love to have a boat that's actually faster than C27s, but that's rated slower.

I also think Jim would love the Capri 30. It's a very fast, good-sailing boat by any standard, and he'd get it's best out of it.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 06/01/2010 08:38:22

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2010 : 09:55:31

I was disappointed that I had to miss an auction at my Marina this weekend that included a Cat 30. I couldn't inspect the boat before hand, so I couldn't even have a surrogate bidder. I'm going up this week and will find out what it went for.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2010 : 11:40:44

About the C-27's - they are a little better as a cruising boat. There are 3 of them raced actively at my club. I usually don't have a hard time finishing ahead of them. Most of the extra volume on them is in the aft dumpster and the hanging locker.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2010 : 13:16:10

Nice review... I agree on most points although the outboard in the well is a weak link in my opinion. Small boat sailors tend to be better sailors overall as they have to be, newbies with Mac 26's excluded.

This guy did not make it...http://www.presstelegram.com/breakingnews/ci_15148134

I think a week before your race, but it shows that even a TransPac - er can fail somehow...
sten

Edited by - on

windsong
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2010 : 09:41:51

Tom Kirschbaum's body has been found:
http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-sailboat-found,0,1121182.story

Edited by - on

andy
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2010 : 12:45:54

Catalina 27's are great boats, I agree. Would probably have been a better choice for you Jim, for San Diego. They are trailerable however, (for one trip in and out of the water per year...) we've got two of them in our club. C27's, well sailed are plenty fast.

I really agree with Steve on the favorable rating on the '25 for all the reasons he stated

We have a Portsmouth rating of around 95...the C27 is around 87. A J80 is around 76. We corrected out ahead of a well sailed J80 2 out of 3 races this weekend and seriously motored the other 5 C25's in the regatta. My boat is raced up, light weight with a faired go fast bottom, custom rudder and new North sails... the other '25's weren't. We were also double handed with 50 years of racing experience between us and have been racing together for five years.

Most C25 owners aren't stupid enough to put that kind of money into a pocket cruiser that really wasn't designed to race...but what the hell, sometimes you just gotta do what 'ya got'ta do.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2010 : 15:56:38

As to that guy missing (found dead) on the trip back from Catalina the weekend before. I was out that weekend giving a sailing lesson. The winds and waves were intense! I had on #2 jib and full main and stayed in Mission Bay. Later in the day the seas dropped below 8 feet (at 8 feet they break at the Mission Bay harbor mouth - very dangerous). I took my lesson crew outside. It seemed like the waves were up to the spreaders! And they were very steep, and close, with some really large sets. But not overly dangerous, not breaking. I exercised great care in taking them outside in those conditions. This was on Saturday and on Sunday it was much worse. Winds were up to 30 knots. Seas were over 10 feet. I stayed home.

Why the singlehander chose to sail his Folkbot 20 home from Catalina that Sunday no one will every know. His harness was found locked closed with his tether cliped on to the boat. Most people that knew him told he was safety consious to a high degree - so he was wearing it. The thought is he got washed out of the harness during a knockdown. His body washed up on the beach with lifejacket on. Boat righted and sailed up on the beach under autopilot.

A terrible way to go.

My wife and I have been discussing getting a personal EPIRB for Father's day.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2010 : 20:02:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 My wife and I have been discussing getting a personal EPIRB for Father's day.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...not a 30-footer?

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2010 : 05:45:49

Personal EPIRB or SPOT sounds about right Jim. I also shove three mini rocket flares in my pocket and a small vhf clipped on when single handing.

sten

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2010 : 16:48:07

There are 2 hours left in the bid for the Capri 30 and it's going for $2K.

I think the thing to do is race in this year's Nationals, attempt to become National Champion, then sell the boat.

At that point I can consider buying a new one, and moving up to a 30 foot race boat. J29, Capri 30, Olson 30, SC-27, or maybe a Moore 24.

Buying a new boat now would be insane, having 2, and attempting to sell 1.

Besides lets be real it would take at least $15K maybe more to get that Capri 30 racing (main, #1, #2 and #3 jib, spinnaker, asym). Instruments. Running and standing rigging, who even knows the condition of the bottom. I can come up with $2K but $2K + 15 more is not possible.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2010 : 10:54:07

Great photos! I saw a giant tug hooked up like that to the stern of a huge cruise ship in Venice last fall--I assumed for making tight turns. It did look odd, being towed astern like that.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/05/2010 10:54:38

JudOWNED
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
98 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2010 : 16:55:53

Love the pics, man.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2011 : 13:26:40

I've raced against C27's and never had much of a problem in beating them (same for a J80 we have racing).
I've also raced on one and I think the V-berth and aft berths are much smaller - the extra 2' is taken up by the head.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2011 : 14:20:28

Notice that this thread is from June, and has been reactivated by a spammer--ArmiashkaCheburek.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2011 : 16:24:25

I noticed that Dave, but it still fired me up again

The 27 may be bigger but surely is not better

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.