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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Bow rail Damage

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C25OBrien
1st Mate

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USA
44 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/13/2010 : 15:17:59

Well, at least i got about 15 days of sailing in this year before doing some damage. My fault, Long story short, I was tied up to a dock and a large yacht passed about 500 yds out and gave me a nice 4 ft wake to my beam. Bumpers saved the side, however the boat heeled so much that the bow rail caught the dock pole. The railing is slightly bent to port and the port front attachment point is ripped out.
The crack goes through to the anchor locker (I think, I need to inspect further this weeekend). The crack goes forward 2 inches away from the stem fitting. I am concerned about the load that the forestay and fitting bear. I don't have the upgraded extended stem fitting (Which I no longer see for sale on CD). I have yet to instect what kind of backing plate is on the current stem fitting.
My current plan is to inspect it this weekend and get an estimate for an experienced friend or a pro to take a look, my glass repair experience is minimal.

Does anyone have any advice or insight on my concerns about the load on the stem fitting and/or the best way to fix this? I dont know that I could get a 12:1 bevel on the edge of the hole for the proper glass job without removing and reinstalling the all hardware, which would mean dropping the mast.

thanks

-Chris OB
Cool Yer Heels
1980 C-25 SR/FK L-Dinette
Sag Harbor, NY

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2010 : 16:18:23

Ouch!

I believe the loading for the forestay is via the hull, not the deck, but I can't be sure. I would suggest forwarding your photo to catalina yachts in Florida for better info. I have found them to be extremely helpful - and interested - in these sorts of things.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2010 : 18:15:26

http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=584&ParentCat=35

Edited by - on

Stu G
Deckhand

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USA
17 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2010 : 05:38:06

The 4 bolts on the top of the forestay go through an area of solid fiberglass. They are backed with large washes on my 81. I had to do a repair on the same area although it wasn't as extensive as yours. I had a leak in the anchor locker and the PO had tried to deal with it by putting silicone everywhere including filling the drain hole. As a result rain water just sat in the locker and the plywood core of the deck above was saturated and disintegrating. The plywood in this area is thin about 1/4 inch. It stopped a couple inches aft of the forestay which was solid. That's probably why your crack stop in about the same place. I don't think you need to lower the mast to make the repair although it might be more convenient to get it out of the way.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2010 : 06:49:43

I'd be calling my insurance company.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2010 : 06:56:42

In FL the Yacht is liable for your damage.

Edited by - on

C25OBrien
1st Mate

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USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2010 : 07:18:06

I have a 300 or 500 deductable on my insurance, I need to confirm. The problem with the yacht is that it was very far away and gone by the time the waves even got to shore, and it was an open channel so it is my fault more than theirs anyways. My concern about my insurance is if I am liable for not properly securing my vessel. I had my beam facing the channel (the channel was approx 400 yds away). When i arrived, there were a few wakes making it that far but the bumpers were doing fine, naive of me to assume that a larger wake wouldnt make it farther. Do you think my insurance would cover it? All of my boats until now were quite small so I've never had a full coverage policy before now.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2010 : 08:42:06

Call them and find out. You don't have to file a claim to ask them the questions you've asked here. NEVER offer the idea that you may be at fault because you were not! I assume there were cleats on the dock. They were there becuase it is expected that boats would tie up alongside. But, even if there were no cleats and you tied off some other way, it's expected that a dock is there to allow for boat-to-land connection. You took usual precautions against damage. I'd check with local authorities to determine if there might be speed restrictions in the channel thereby aiding your claim. A 4 foot wave means that guy was moving at a pretty good clip. Anybody else there to notice the wake?

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2010 : 16:11:12

So did you get a good look at the boat that rocked you? Did it look like this?

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2010 : 21:19:22

I would do the bow stem upgrade after the repair. Your older boat uses the deck to anchor the old style bow stem, the upgrade transfers the load to the hull.

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2010 : 13:48:41

Here's what I did.
http://members.csinet.net/dhapp/stem/stem.html

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C25OBrien
1st Mate

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USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2010 : 13:56:00

That looks great, was it a pain to have to remove the rubrail? Also, having the fin keel, I'd like to try to avoid haul out until october, so at this point I just want it to be strong enough to last the season of sailing and then do the bow upgrade on the hard. I sent the pic to a mobile repair company in my area and they said around a thousand bucks to fix it (they seem like a high end place so that may be overkill). Calling insurance tomorrow to discuss...

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2010 : 14:18:51

Chris,
You do not have to lower the mast to remove the stem fitting. The forward lower shrouds are sufficient hold the mast in place if you use the jib halyard secured to one of the forward cleats as a temporary replacement for the fore-stay.

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2010 : 04:39:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> That looks great, was it a pain to have to remove the rubrail?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It was off when I bought the boat. Have no idea how to replace it.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2010 : 05:56:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 So did you get a good look at the boat that rocked you? Did it look like this?...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Cut that out!! (it'd be fun to be able to draw a 4' wake, though...

)

Chris, the upgraded stem fitting is a good idea, especially with the damage you have, even after it's repaired. It has a tang that goes under the rub-rail and reaches down the bow where it's thru-bolted--a significant structural improvement for the rig. Another member here had their deck-bolted stem fitting rip off the bow, taking a piece of fiberglass with it. If you don't want the integral anchor roller, check with CD whether they have the one without--the upgrade Catalina made sometime around 1983, I think. (You can sorta see it if you click my C-25 signature picture below.)

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2010 : 13:06:27

I did not remove my rubrail, it slipped in behind it. The shot is actually of an interim step of an anchor drain upgrade.

Edited by - on

C25OBrien
1st Mate

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USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2010 : 13:12:07

My insurance deductable is $200, so i think I'll have a pro do it (sorry to all you highly skilled DIY's). My glass experience isnt there for something that is a safety concern. Should i tell them i just hit a dock, or was blown into one? I dont want them to come back with some BS about not properly securing my vessel.
That bow looks great Frank, I look forward to the project this winter.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2010 : 13:47:44

The truth is always the best bet. You can remember it easier. I'd simply tell them that you were knocked over by a 4 foot wake from a passing stinkpotter while securing your vessel to a dock. A little indignation at how fast he was going in a limited navigation area wouldn't hurt.

Edited by - John Russell on 07/16/2010 14:06:18

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2010 : 19:10:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by C25OBrien

My current plan is to inspect it this weekend and get an estimate for an experienced friend or a pro to take a look, my glass repair experience is minimal.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Having worked in a few boat yards myself, I wouldn't count on hiring a 'pro' to solve all your worries.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Does anyone have any advice or insight on my concerns about the load on the stem fitting and/or the best way to fix this?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have repaired a worse version of similar damage to the foredeck of my 1979 C-25.

Hurricane ripped bow rail stanchions out of foredeck. Previous owner had butcher repair done involving slapping a thin SS plate over the external cosmetic damage, but not really fixing the internal structural damage. Plywood core disintegrated from water intrusion.

I straightened, then removed the bow pulpit. Also removed bow cleats, anchor locker cover, forestay tack fitting, whale eye lights, anything else on the bow not part of the fiberglass deck, except the rubrail. Was careful not to further damage what was left of the foredeck top skin. (No 12:1 bevel this time.)

The contortionist aspect of the repair procedure was the hardest part. Reaching in through the anchor locker, I removed all plywood core. Ground and sanded all exposed fiberglass to smooth, clean, and expose fresh fibers. Cut new cleat backing plates from 1/4" epoxy fiberglass panel laid up specifically to jigsaw into misc. backing plates.

Replaced foredeck core with two layers of 1/4" plywood as large as would fit, grain oriented to conform to deck crown, corners radiused and edges tapered and beveled for glass cloth. Dry fit new core pieces using small hydraulic bottle jack and plywood padding to avoid damaging anchor locker.

Precoated underside of deck skin and top of upper panel of new plywood core with epoxy. Added a layer of glass cloth on top of plywood. Quickly mixed up epoxy based putty, applied generously to top of new core. Pressed first layer of core into place using jack. Verified, then scraped away, squeezed out putty, forming a radiused fillet for glass cloth. Added about a dozen small sheetmetal screws through deck skin into new core to flatten and clamp torn fiberglass. Once cured hard enough to adhere on its own (a day), removed jack and added lower panel of plywood core using same method (including single layer of cloth between plywood). Let 2nd plywood cure a day before removing jack. Applied inner skin of several layers of fiberglass cloth and epoxy resin in one continuous layup session.

Reinstalled bow cleats using 5/16" SS machine screws, fiberglass backing plates bedded with micro fiber reinforced epoxy mush, stacked fender washers, split washers, nylock nuts.

Replaced 1979 tack fitting with Catalina factory upgrade stem fitting & anchor roller. Reinforced stem fitting bolts with custom fit fiberglass backing plate, fender washers, nylocks, etc. as with cleats. Used over length aft bolts to provide a strong point to secure bitter ends of anchor rodes.

Filled all gaps around anchor locker pan with couple laminations of fiberglass cloth and epoxy resin. Stiffened anchor locker pan with a layer or two of woven roving and epoxy. Replaced locker drain with 3/4" PVC. Fabricated protective housings for back sides of whale eye lights using stacked plywood 'donuts' shaped to fit, and Beckson-style cover plates for later access (1 red & 1 green, of course). Replaced faded whale eye lenses and corroded bulb sockets. Ran new marine grade wiring while I was in there.

Repaired cracked anchor locker hatch cover and stiffened from underside with fiberglass and epoxy. Cut rode notches at fwd edge. Added SS coil spring type hatch holder to protect fingers and toes from hatch cover bites when working with ground tackle.

Matched and patched gelcoat where pulpit had originally torn out, and around new drain through stem.

Drilled 2x, filled & redrilled all mounting holes through deck core to reinforce and protect core from leaks.

Reinstalled pulpit with fender washers, nylocks, etc.

While I was on a roll, fabricated adjustable anchor locker divider to separate two rodes from tangling.

The key to doing your own boat repair & maintenance is to do a bit of reading, have a plan, and get started.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - Leon Sisson on 08/09/2010 19:16:45

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2010 : 06:42:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Leon Sisson
 ...The key to doing your own boat repair & maintenance is to do a bit of reading, have a plan, and get started.

-- Leon Sisson
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Whew!! A better key is to have your insurance company fly Leon in and get him a nice room. Then you just sit back and marvel!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/10/2010 06:43:09

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2010 : 08:57:57

Yeah, but you"re Leon and we are mortals. I might overlook a few, but my perception is that that there's Frank and Leon and us.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 08/10/2010 09:02:04

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2010 : 10:38:00

Yepper.. I've got a new term: I'm gonna "Put the Leon On It".

I'd of just removed the rail, taped up the bottom, sanded it down and poured resin all over it.

Don't make me Call the Leon.....

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