Association Forum - Heavy outboard do I need ballast in Vbirth?

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Heavy outboard do I need ballast in Vbirth?

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

fpill
1st Mate

Member Avatar

USA
51 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/18/2010 : 14:51:23

First the background:
I bought a Nissan 4 stroke 9.9 HP at the end of last year to replace my Johnson 2 stroke 9.9 HP.
Since putting on the new outboard I have noticed that it sits (what I think is ) very low in the water. My outboard bracket has three settings, one keeps the engine out of the water, the one that I use to run the engine, and an even lower setting I refuse to use. On the middle setting the starboard on the bracket sits in the water.

The Question:
Have any Nissan/Tohatsu/Mercury 9.9 HP 4 stroke owners had this same issue?
If so has anyone used ballast in the v-berth to counter the heavier outboard?

Extra info:
I have searched the forum, and have only found C-250's try this, so I'm concerned I may have done something wrong.

I do not know what bracket I have. It was with the boat when I bought it. I will find out if that helps.

I have left the water tank empty.
The batteries are in the starboard settee.

Thanks

Frank
1978 C25 #488
SR/WK
West Islip, NY

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2010 : 20:28:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fpill
 On the middle setting the starboard on the bracket sits in the water.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Something ain't right here... I had a Honda that was 10-15 lbs. heavier than your Nissan, and the boat sat nicely on her lines. How does your waterline and boot strip look bow to stern relative to the water?

If you have a Starboard mounting board, it sounds like you might have a newer bracket... Is it made of stainless steel tubing? That'd be the new version of the original (probably) Garhauer. Was it perhaps re-mounted in a lower position than the original? Did they perhaps put it too low? (There could be some signs inside or outside of the original bolt holes.) The wing keel on the '78 is also a retrofit, so some previous owner has done some things to this boat.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/18/2010 20:34:29

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2010 : 20:47:46

That is odd. My Mercury Bigfoot 9.9 may be the heaviest outboard of the lot, and it didn't have a significant impact on how Pearl sits since changing from a 2 stroke Johnson 9.9.

Edited by - on

Rich G
Navigator

Members Avatar

226 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2010 : 21:59:32

I recently replaced my awful, Suzuki 9.9 with a Nissan 9.8. The Nissan is 30 lbs. lighter and I don't notice any difference in the way the boat sits in the water. I never put the motor bracket all the way down to the lowest position.

However, the highest position does not keep the prop out of the water without tilting the motor. Is your new motor an extra long shaft (25")?

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3460 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 03:47:02

Agree with the others. I have a heavyweight Honda 9.9 and have no issues with the list, etc of the boat. Only thing I notice is that if I go fast with engine at about 2/3 max throttle, the bottom of the outboard support block will begin touvching the water and causes some small turbulance. Not a big deal and that only really occurs if I am by myself. If there is another body sitting forward in the cockpit, I believe that is enough that it minimizes that issue from occuring.

I see no reason to add ballast in the VBerth area.

Edited by - OLarryR on 08/19/2010 03:50:29

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 07:06:27

The wing keel retrofit probably changed the actual waterline a bit. I know that our swing keel boat rides differently in the water depending on whether the keel is up or down.
The only real way to check is to completely empty the boat of all gear and the motor and fuel tank (cushions can stay in their place). Check how she rides in the water compared to the painted waterline. Then add the motor back, recheck, add more stuff, recheck, etc.
We have the Nissan 9.8, XLS, electric start. It weighs in at 93 lbs, per the printed specs. It is only 5 lbs. heavier than the older Suzuki 9.9 2 stroke it replaced so I saw no noticeable change.

Edited by - dmpilc on 08/19/2010 07:08:29

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 08:33:51

I have a 9.9 Merc 4 stroke and Stephanos sits fine. I would think extra weight on a boat is bad thing.

I too have a problem with getting my long shaft all the way out of the water. Even tilted back all the way the prop will drag on port tack.

Edited by - on

mlg3733
Navigator

Members Avatar

118 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 08:43:57

It is the bottom of the pad which touches the water, isn't it? Can't it be just that you never paid attention to it before with the somewhat lighter motor? I have a 9.9 Yamaha four stroke on a Garelick bracket model 71090, with 9 1/2" of travel, which is not quite enough, if I had the 71091 model wit 15" of travel, the bottom of the pad would be pretty close to the water under way. It sounds like it is more the bracket and its location than the motor extra weight.

Edited by - on

wmuchmore
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 08:48:00

Frank,
I also live in West Islip, and keep my boat at the town dock on Ocean Ave by Captain Bills. My guess is that a PO relocated the bracket too low. This was done on my boat as can be seen by the several patched holes in the transom. In any event I would be glad to meet you and take a look at your boat if you like. Just let me know.
Mike Muchmore
1980 TR/FK

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5368 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2010 : 21:05:59

Frank,
This is how the engine mount looks on Passage

Side view of the engine mount

Rear view of the engine mount

I hope this provides you with a sense of perspective.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2010 : 07:10:54

I installed Bruce's bracket when I owned Passage, replacing a crappy one a PO had put on to replace the original Garhauer. Note that it's not the SS Garhauer--it's a Fulton that's very similar in construction (cast aluminum) to the Garelicks. I picked a vertical position that gave maximum depth for the prop while allowing decent clearance with the engine tilted--just one notch while at the dock, and maybe two under sail. It might also be offset a little more to starboard due to a goofy mooring setup I had... So its position does not necessarily apply to a Garhauer (or any other) bracket.

(I can't believe Bruce has left my ugly U-bolts and SS plates on the transom...

)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/20/2010 07:13:31

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2010 : 08:04:53

I can't speak to other's experiences, but I found that 30' of 5/16" chain in the anchor locker gave our boat an advantage at punching through short, steep waves. (The norm on our lake when things kick up)

Then again, it may just be in my head.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4023 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2010 : 16:35:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">(I can't believe Bruce has left my ugly U-bolts and SS plates on the transom... )<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well Dave, you know Bruce just loves to water ski!

Edited by - on

fpill
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
51 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2010 : 19:04:44

Thanks for all of the replies.

I went down to check out the engine mount and take pictures of the mount and waterline. Unfortunately, I'm having a problem with Verizon and can't upload them to shutterfly just now.

To Dave:
I was wrong about the Starboard material. It was plywood covered in a white (squishy) material, but I did find another set of mounting holes about 1" higher and just to the side of the present mounting. I did not find any model number or brand on the mounting bracket, so I don't know who makes it. If I can up load the pictures maybe just on sight someone can ID it.

I measured the clearance of the mounting board to the water while the engine mount was in the middle position. It was 6" above the water in the slip and only myself in the cockpit. I compared my waterline to an 1983 Cat 25 in the slip next to me, and there doesn't seem to be much difference.

To MLG3733:
Your right it just may be that I don't remember. I haven't had much time to use the boat this summer, and took her out for the first time this past week.
Now I'll have to go down and measure the travel distance of the mount.

Mike:
I'm still on the town waiting list to get into Bayshore or West Islip. I'm in Bayberry yacht club in Islip. I'm going to have to stop by and say hi. With your lower mount, have you ever had the engine mount touch the water?

Chris (Prospector):
How much weight do you think your adding with the chain?

I hope to post some pictures once I fix this Verizon problem.

Thanks again everyone!!!!

Edited by - on

two port feet
1st Mate

Members Avatar

77 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2010 : 22:51:22

We mostly day sail at our local lake, until this July and August We tailored to the San Juan Islands. In preparations for this trip. I found tucked in the rear inspection panel two complete diving belts. I though wow what a find. Thinking A prior owner added the weight to keep a lighter motor from cavitating in large waves. So with a Honda 9.9 and the heavy four spring mount from CD I removed the two diving belts then I moved the anchor out of the dumpster to the anchor locker along with twenty six feet of 3/8 anchor chain 200 ft. ½ inch anchor line, though I was set. About the second week into sailing it rained all weekend. letting me know why the weight was add to the rear. My 1981 SK Catalina 25 is quit bow heavy so much so that without the add weight the sides nor cockpit drain properly. The diving belts are going right back where I found them. My vbirth was empty.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2010 : 06:56:14

Swingers are famous for having water collect in the forward part of the cockpit when the keel is down, and draining to the rear when it's up. But leaving it up raises another risk...

I believe in having an anchor up forward for possible emergency deployment.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5368 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2010 : 19:50:14

Scott, I don't water ski as much as I used to, but I use them to tow a dink when needed, I lock my engine to one of them, and just didn't want to have to fill the holes. I think they are unique and cool. And they don't hurt anything.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2010 : 21:43:52

Well, unique? Yes. Cool?

Adequate for towing a dinghy? More like for towing a Grand Banks.

Edited by - on

Jay Schkloven
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
84 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2010 : 08:20:16

I added the same motor and new Garelick motor mount discussed above last year. I have a swing keel and it is sensitive to equipment placement at the dock with the keel up. If the bow is really lower in the water there must be something else going on. I keep the weight in the V berth to a min. and do not have any issues. I have used weight in the stern to keep the motor in the water when I go forward. I have used gallon jugs of water in the rear starboard berth and they work well. I move them to the ladder area when sailing and move them to the rear when docking.

Edited by - on

wmuchmore
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2010 : 08:59:12

Frank,
I had the same problem with Verizon the last couple of days, but it seems to be OK now.
My boat does not have the original bracket or the replacement types other 25 owners have, so I can't be much help. My PO had installed a Johnson bracket with a cylinder boost, and from the evidence of holes in the transom, he obviously had to try different locations. However, your 6" clearance sounds awfully close to the water. Could it be that your old motor had a short shaft which the PO compensated for by lowering the bracket?
Actually there's no way now that I could have a weight in the stern problem. I'm using a 1995 Mariner 5 h.p. (50-60lbs) bought cheap to replace a Johnson 9.9 which the salt water corroded to death. (Actually the 5 hp gets me back and forth from the slip to the bay and back and never needs more than half throttle.)
Hope your name comes up soon for the town slip. It will be good to have another Cat 25 with me.
Mike Muchmore
1980 TR/FK

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2010 : 09:00:24

I'm envisioning four tanks and two pumps... Tanks under the v-berth and quarterberth for fore-aft trimming by pump, and on both sides of the keel for pumping ballast to windward on each tack. (Too late for a patent, tho...

)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/22/2010 09:01:36

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2010 : 09:10:23

Story of my life Dave. Day late and a dollar short.

Edited by - on

fpill
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
51 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2010 : 11:45:58

OK my problem (with Verizon ) seems fixed. Here are some picture of how the engine sits on the boat.

Does anyone notice if the waterline seems different from their boat?

In the picture below the engine mount is 6" above the water

Below is a picture from above of the engine mount. Notice the epoxied hole offset from the present mount. Can anyone tell if this is the original mount just moved around?

Once again, thanks to everyone for comments and suggestions!!!

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2010 : 12:17:53

Just guessing here but I'd be a PO had a short shaft motor when he/she installed the mount you have lower than is typical. That's a pretty long reach through the pushpit to get at the handle to lift the motor. It's also why your prop doesn't clear the water when lifted without tilting the motor.

Edited by - on

mlg3733
Navigator

Members Avatar

118 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2010 : 12:25:19

The mount seems to be designed for a two stroke motor and may be a bit light for your setup, you should add a bolt on the upper left side (where it looks as if it is pulling away from the hull) but I see nothing different from my own boat as far as the waterline is concerned.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4023 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2010 : 12:34:10

Frank, This is the mount that came with your boat from Catalina I have the same one. Your third photo showing the engine in the middle position looks to be ok to me for motoring. You have an extra long shaft motor that should work just fine in that position. I only see the two filled bolt holes and not 4 so I don't know if the mount was moved. The hole in the middle might have been used for somthing else like a wire. Are you trying to motor too fast? These boats will start to squat down in the stern and drag the bottom of the mount in the water if you have the throttle up to high. Half throttle and 4-5 knots is about it. Here is a photo of my mount.
[url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/248586/4159179794/]

[/url]
[url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/248586/4159179794/]093[/url] by [url=http://www.flickr.com/people/248586/]sb11507[/url], on Flickr

Edited by - islander on 08/22/2010 12:45:10

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.