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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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I love my boat and it's size but...

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luckystar
Navigator

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USA
236 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/16/2002 : 22:32:26

It seems that they are impossible to find but I have really fallen in love with the Catalina Capri 26. It's got everything that I wish mine had but with the same classic styling. Wheel steering, 9'10" beam, full head with shower, head room, easy to use galley, inboard engine and a fin keel, lots of entertaining in the salon config and walk through transom!! I don't like the way the compression pole comes through the salon berths, but I would sleep in the aft cabin. There are a few for sale on Yachtworld, but far away from me and at 9'10" beam, they'd have to be professionally trailered down here to Arkansas. As I said, I'm really happy with my C25 and all the wonderful things I've done to customize and simplify, I'll probably keep her. I'm over the 2 foot-itis (or is it ten feet these days!), I love how cheap and easy it is to maintain our little boats, and for their size they are quite comfy! But if someone in my area had one of the Capri 26's for sale, I'd have to think really hard about that!! Does anyone know anything about them? Anyway, thanks for hearing my rant...

Had a wonderful sail today in 10-15 at noonish and tapering off to around 6-7 by 5pm. Sailed to the end of my lake in less than two hours (usually takes about 2.5 to 3) the new sails and winches help so much! The autopilot has a hard time keeping a close reach/haul course in wind over 8ish, so I handled her. But I recommend tuning your rig to anyone out there who has excessive weather helm, it is light and feather touch even in heavy wind. I was quite impressed! The company I took out today had never been sailing before and she picked it up quickly, maybe I have found that first mate finally? Who knows!!

Take care everyone here on one of the greatest reasons to own a C25/250!! Everyone else envies our assoc. I love it.

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/17/2002 : 07:57:54

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
. . I'll probably keep her . . . maybe I have found that first mate finally?

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

No new boat or other distractions until you've finished the replacement logo . . . <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
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Response Posted - 11/17/2002 : 11:58:08

Hi Patrick,

The Capri 26 is a nice boat. It was originally designed as the Catalina 26 in the mid '80s but Frank Butler and the crew at the factory decided that with a Catalina 25, 27, and 28 already in the line that a C26 would be too confusing. So the boat was re-designated the Capri 26. And, it is certainly more of a cruiser/racer.

Unfortunaltely for the factory, the Capri 26 never caught on like our C25s did. Partly because buyers would compare between our C25s and the Capri 26. Other than elbow room, the Capri 26 didn't seem bigger inside than a C25. That's because the extra length was made up with the extended waterline, but taken away by the forward raked transom. Another drawback was that the Capri 26's beam at 9'6" means that the width is now quite a lot wider than 1/3 of the boat's length. That doesn't give much more useable space below, and slows the boat down due to having to push more water as she sails along. In fact, the Capri 26 has only the same amount of sail area as a tall-rig C25. With the wider beam plus weighing around 700 lbs more than a fixed keel C25, the Capri 26 never lived up to it's racer/cruiser heritage.

What buyers did like about the Capri 26 was the enclosed (all-be-it snug) head. They also liked allot the walk through transom - especially if the boat had a diesel inboard engine. Swimming from the stern of the boat or backing up to a dock (Med-style) was much easier with the Capri 26 than with a C25.

Buyers were often neutral about the aft berth. Some thought it was great to have a nice "queen sized" berth aft. Others felt that there wasn't enough headroom and that it was somewhat claustrophobic.

As with all boat designes, there are lots of compromises with the Capri 26 (so too with the C25). As I said at the start Patrick, the Capri 26 is a nice boat. If I were still a Catalina dealer (sold the business in '87) I know that I'd be able to sell the blazes out of this model to folks looking for a big boat feel in an affordable package........just like I did with the C25. But, for me, I don't think that I'll be trading Snickerdoodle for a Capri 26 anytime soon.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

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Steve Raffel
Captain

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Response Posted - 11/17/2002 : 20:12:13

Is this boat still in production? There is no mention of it on the Catalina website ?

Steve Raffel
C 250 WK #408

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luckystar
Navigator

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Response Posted - 11/17/2002 : 23:59:54

Thanks, Bill, for the info, you said it, (paraphrase) all boats require sacrifice. I still love my boat and have a great time, but we all have our druthers..., funny OJ! :} See new post to the logo topic...

I still have to say, though, that if a capri 26 of decent condition came up around me, I'd have to think long and hard...

Oh, and Steve, as best I can tell these were in production from 1990-1996?? their assoc. page is nothing like this, and has a few pics but no real history or info. I'd really like to know more about them but more importantly, I would really like to take one for a sail and see what it's like...

Bill, would the wider beam give the boat more stability in a blow and less chance of a knock down?

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR

Edited by - luckystar on 11/18/2002 00:03:43

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Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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769 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2002 : 09:06:11

Yes Patrick, the added beam will lend itself to greater initial stability. But the Capri 26 uses the same fixed keel as the fixed keel on the C25. That combined with the same sail area as a tall rig C25 AND a beam that is roughly 37.5% of its length means that the Capri 26 can have a real propensity to round up quickly. Some folks call this weather helm, others call it shape (or form) rounding up.

Again, compromises.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/18/2002 : 11:35:12

If my memory serves me correct, tech articles in the mainsheet described some owners moving the mast step forward to overcome the rounding up tendancies Bill mentions.

While adverse weather helm was a known problem on the C25, it manifested itself even more severly on the c250 in rounding up tendancies. The reason is likely as simple as looking at the specs. The C25 had a water line length of 22'2" compared to 21'4" for the C250. Both have 8'6" beam but the C250 has squarer bilges.

Hull forms and their effects are quite interesting... and the point is well made by Bill that there are compromises. For example, the wider bilges on the C250 allow internal ballast which makes for very easy trailerbility.... but at a cost. Part of that cost is the water line form when heeling. It becomes a very high lift foil unfortunately to leeward. This is a double edge sword as it both increases leeway (all ready bad because of the light discplacement high freeboard) and as all high lift profiles...increases drag. So it becomes very important to sail them fairly flat.

If someone could invent a hull form that lifted to weather when heeling... like some Catamarans enjoy... but thats probably not going to happen for a mono. btw... even those cats like the Hobie 16 and Prindles that used hull shape to lift to weather... suffered the cost of increased drag on other points of sail....so again as Bill points out...sailing machines are a compromise.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2002 : 20:57:00

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The C25 had a water line length of 22'2" compared to 21'4" for the C250. Both have 8'6" beam but the C250 has squarer bilges.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Actually, Arlyn, the C-25 has only an 8' beam, which probably partly explains the 250's greater propensity to round up. Also, the C-25 is much more slender aft. I suspect that part of round-up problem is that on the boat that is beamier well aft with an outboard rudder, healing lifts the rudder until there isn't enough blade to counteract even normal weather helm. I saw that especially on a friend's O'Day 19 (made after the Mariner and before the 192)--an unusually beamy 19-footer. Just when we'd really start to fly, the rudder would lose its grip and she'd snap into the wind.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 11/19/2002 : 13:14:08

Dave, the problem is not rudder immersion... in fact the third generation rudder is designed shorter than the 2nd.

The third has a very high lift foil and of course is balanced. It probably goes without saying... that the need for such a high lift rudder to hold the boat indicates a struggle elsewhere...that being the length to width ratio. And, you may be right that a wider section aft plays into the equation.

However, the aft water line on the c250 wraps under the hull to a fairly narrow section. I am not savvy about the water line aft on the C25 but recalling the C22, the water line aft was up on the sides of the hull and verticle surface of the transom.

In fact, the stern has minimal wetted area which may contribute to the problem by providing minimal resistance to boat rotation aft. Explaining, the C250 is a light discplacement high freeboard boat and suffers a lot of windage and with much power aloft... has significant leeway. I don't think this dynamic is fully appreciated for the effects it has. The reason I say that is that sure, the c250 can suffer rounding up at severe heel... but it also is given to something else happening that I've tried to relate to Catalina and this forumn. I described it as spinning out but Catalina says there simply is no such term for a sailboat.

Whatever... it was a rudder lock turn either under power or sail that was very difficult to recover from. The problem of getting out of it was fixed by balancing the rudder which then required only slight helm pressure. The solution to stopping the locked turn was to add some skeg. I think this problem gives a clue to the rounding up issue. That the stern yields too easily to leeway.

We know from long historical sailboat dynamics that the "Lead" relationship of the CE and CLR control the boat balance. And that the CLR is dynamic. It shifts due to increasing forces such as leeway and wetted hull form changes. Its shift on the C250 is greater like most boats broad and buoyant in mid section. With minimum wetted area aft and no verticle surfaces except the rudder, the stern is fairly free to (spin) yield to leeway and the CLR moves forward, the boat goes out of balance with weather helm increasing and the boat tries to round up.

So, maybe your right...the boat is too bouyant aft. Readings offer that stern loading helps overcome weather helm which makes sense because it increases lateral resistance aft. Actually C250 owners have been doing the opposite by moving batteries forward from the aft compartement and having success. This can probably be explained by the fact that doing so has the effect of raking the mast forward and the CE gain is greater than the CLR loss aft... because there just isn't much loss of verticle immersed hull aft as those square bilges at the mid section give way to a rounder hull form near the stern.

Actually for the greater good...would be to leave the batteries there... and do what the Capri owners do...and move the mast forward....or what I did... add some skeg and in doing some lateral resistance aft. It was far easier to add than moving the mast.

My comments should not minimize Bill Holcombs thoughts about water stacking up against the wetted leeward hull form and the resulting forward CLR shift that this drag causes. In fact, I believe it to be the greater effect... My point is, hull form is fixed and not heeling is the only solution to that issue, but not the only thing that can be done to help.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2002 : 22:13:20

Arlyn: At risk of driving everyone away from the forum with all this physics... The C-25 waterline is well below the transom when upright--not at all like the C-22. The tapered stern pretty much keeps it that way at heel--probably more so than on the C-250. Do you drag your transom at substantial heel?

Your "spin-out" effect is what kayakers call "rocker"--the ease with which the boat turns on its axis. I suspect the C-250WB spins easier than the C-250WK for the same reason a WK spins easier than a Cape Dory (which practically won't spin at all). But you have a lot more angular momentum than a kayak! BTW, in my unscientific opinion, the most common cause of excessive leeway is over-trimming--sheeting in too tightly.

But hey--leeway or not, both boats sail great! They prove it on the racecourse every year, and as we all know, whenever two sailboats are on the same tack, there's a race going on!

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 11/19/2002 22:17:45

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 11/20/2002 : 10:41:32

I have not noted stern dragging on the c250. What is evident is less fore and aft pitch in a seaway. This may possibly be a water ballast model trait.

I certainly agree with you about excessive leeway with improper sheet trim. Sheets too tight shifts forward lift aft to the beam.

Not sure which model would suffer the greater CLR shift. The wing has less discplacement than the water ballast so its water line (actual) is lower. And, just recently brought to light is that the wing has greater freeboard. The verticle area of the keel on the wing would be less than the center board so it will give leeway easier and thus have less underwater heeling forces. As the wing begins to heel however, the resistive area increases with the wing coming into play. Also, when heel becomes significant, the center board model will lose resistance do to laminar flow loss off the end of board which the wing model of course prevents. And last, the center board has more verticle keel to lift when a postive angle of attack is presented.

I would guess that the wing is subject to more leeway but this will be known after more reports from heads up racing.

What is known... is that a great amount of leeway exist. This realization comes from Hobie experience. The Cat could be tacked when a windward mark came to the beam.... however the C250 in a breeze against surf will require 120-130 degrees. Wow... some may feel there is no way a tack will require an extra 40 degrees. My simple challenge.... establish a windward mark in 18-20 knots of wind with 3-4 ft chop and see if you can do better.

I exited a channel on the south west corner of Manitoulin Island into a Great Lakes breeze and was making about 5 knots...but showing only 1.3 knots vmg to the destination...and yes, was on the favored tack. We only had about 8 miles to the harbor...but it would have taken 6-7 brutal hours to cover what we did easily under motor in 1.5 hrs.

My simple point is leeway is part of the equation to a boat such as the c250... and every sailor should know thier boat.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 11/20/2002 : 11:20:22

I find the discussion facinating and while I don't fully undersatand all the physics of sailing, I think I'm learning.

However, this thread, as Patrick opened whs about the next boat. The c25 is the best boat I've found for my wife and me, but I see some things that I'd rather change, or have a different boat:

First, PO moved the mainsheet to mid-boom and placed a great traveller next to the cabin. Ya, I know it's illegal by class rules, but that's what he did. Problam is that I aways have legs in the way when I want to adjust either the main or the traveller. Also, when someone sits with their back to the cabin, the traveller track gets in the way. Not a big deal, a cusshoin takes care of the problems, but eliminates the traveller as a tool for sail control.

Secondly, for the type of sailing we tend to do, the cockpit is too small. My perfect boat would be a 25 with an extra 5-6 feet of cockpit and a correspondingly smaller cabin, ah but, that's yacht design and all part of the compromise! I'm probably the only one who would want it <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>!

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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luckystar
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236 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2002 : 12:52:43

Don, do a search on Yachtworld.com (http://www.yachtworld.com) for catalina 26 and you'll get a few listings that have some excellent pics so you can see the arrangement. I have that problem all the time while sailing and trying to adjust things, there's always legs and bodies in the way. I would just like to have the large side decks and walk thru tranny that the Capri 26 has. I, too, don't understand all the physics above and find that my boat rounds up just about the same as most of the boats I've been on, including the Newport 33 I race (it just takes a bigger gust to do it and it's 11 something wide) Oh, well, like I said, I don't understand all the physics at hand. I may start looking into it, just for personal knowledge. I'm in no position to sell and purchase something else, especially something that is 1000's of miles away. When I can, I'll probably just look for a used Catalina 270 or 28. It looks like Catalina took all that worked in the Capri 26 and transferred it to a more successful size 27. very similar layouts but maybe with that more powerful sail plan and other changes, she sails better. I wish I knew people with these boats so I could get a first hand looksee.

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 11/20/2002 : 14:30:54

Patrick,

thanks for the link. Just spent the past few minutes looking at some of the boats and the Catalina 26 and Colgate 26 seem like they might fit my needs and elminate the leg problem. Will keep my eyes open. Most of the C26's were much nearer me than you!

Thanks again

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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