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Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/24/2010 : 06:12:18

Last Thursday night races' on Lake St Clair had storm warnings issued after the start. The storm hit on the last leg and although two tornadoes were confirmed on shore a couple of miles from the race course, the winds on the lake topped out between 40 to 60 knots depending on whose anemometer you used. Most of the fleet dropped out before the storm hit. We (un-wisely) followed the two leaders; a C-34 and a C30 around the 2nd mark because I thought we would beat the storm across the finish line and...well, Hell, we were close enough to the leaders to time correct over at least one of them.

The first gust hit us right after we rounded the mark and set the sails, (full Main and 155% Genoa) wing and wing. The wind shifted radically and violently in the gust collapsing the Genny and tangling it around the headstay as I fought the helm to keep from an accidental gibe that I'm sure would have ripped the gooseneck right off the mast. When the gust passed we did a controlled gibe and let the Main run out against the stays and Zingara settled down onto a beam reach/broad reach course, doing hull speed in the general direction of the finish line. Because there were only two of us onboard (my crew is another poster on this forum - Glen,take a bow) I didn’t feel comfortable sending anyone on deck, right away, to shorten or drop sail in the torrential rain and strong gusty winds. We just rode it out for 10 or 15 minutes with the headsail flogging, until conditions let up enough to where I felt the worst was over. (Let me stop here and say for the safety conscious, that the hatch boards were in and we had all our foul weather and safety gear on, including harnesses.) Once the sails were down and the OB was started I turned for the mouth of the river and the dock. That’s when I saw that even though we sailed past the finish line we were a couple of hundred yards too far to the west to score a finish. I lost track of the small mark in the rain and because the committee boat had dragged anchor a quarter of a mile to the wrong side of the mark. BUMMER, If I knew we were that close I would have kept the sails up and changed course.

After we got in we found out that areas along the shore got hit worse than we did: trees downed, a restaurant roof caved-in and a rooftop AC unit blown away, power lines downed etc. Sometimes you’re safer at sea than on land. Anyway, the point is, the C-25 is a hell of a boat that can probably take a lot more pounding than the skipper and crew. Total damage was just a little fraying on the leach of the Genoa. And yeah, we were lucky.

L.Caricchio
ZINGARA – Sail #4222
C25 Fleet Captain-Fleet#3

Navigo Ergo Sum
https://www.createspace.com/3613985

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2010 : 06:54:16

Good job Renzo! As the old expression goes, "Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you." I hope you enjoyed your meal!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2010 : 07:48:04

Glad you were "lucky"!
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Most of the fleet dropped out before the storm hit.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">A similar thing happened where I lived some years back, a bunch of boats ran home, and a very experienced skipper, competing for a series championshiop, did what you did, and died. No capsize--just a "freak accident" in a 60+ storm front. In both cases, the R/C penalized the skippers who valued safety over trophies by not cancelling.

In that case, "fortunately" it was the skipper and not one of his crew... But an entire family suffered, and both the deceased and the R/C were called to question by a lot of people including me.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">As the old expression goes, "Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">There's another old saying that you can avoid surprise encounters with bears in the woods by wearing a little bell around your neck so they hear you coming. There's yet another old saying that it's easy to tell a black bear's dung from a grizzly bear's... The grizzly's dung has little bells in it.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/24/2010 08:02:17

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2010 : 08:21:45

Bad job Renzo.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> trees downed, a restaurant roof caved-in and a rooftop AC unit blown away, power lines downed etc. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And you continued to race even though you had advanced warning? Unbelievable. In my opinion you risked your boat, your crew and your life for nothing. Why?

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2010 : 08:58:08

Don't rag them too much or we will never hear any of these good stories. We all learn from them and, of course, it is always easy to say this or that in retrospect.

There I was, There I was... it was Blowin In the Low 60's...

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2010 : 09:03:46

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2010 : 09:33:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DaveR
 Bad job Renzo.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> trees downed, a restaurant roof caved-in and a rooftop AC unit blown away, power lines downed etc. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And you continued to race even though you had advanced warning? Unbelievable. In my opinion you risked your boat, your crew and your life for nothing. Why?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

HA! Really??? I too think Renzo was safer on the water than trying to bash into a dock upon his return. Shoulda tucked a reef in perhaps, but other than that I see no evidence of improper seamanship.

Quite the contrary my fellow Floridian... I've seen 60 knots moving at 60 knots in the form of a white squall a few times on that side and over here in the Tampa Bay area. Those who tucked tail and ran towards the docks fared the worst. Those who stayed out had minimal damage.

But then take a look at Lin Pardey's video wherein she talks about the "First Rule of Seamanship."

http://video.answers.com/a-new-awareness-to-survive-at-sea-264583172

He who has not sinned - cast the first stone. Lord knows I have shared a bunch of my own boo boo's here and don't really give a flying f--- about what folks here think regarding my seamanship skills or lack thereof. I know I'd rather sail with Renzo than with most who hang around here.

I'm Sten and I approved this message....

DPO Zephyr - C25, FK SR #3220
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - St. Pete Flooreda

Edited by - redviking on 08/24/2010 09:45:33

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2010 : 09:43:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Glad you were "lucky"!
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Most of the fleet dropped out before the storm hit.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">A similar thing happened where I lived some years back, a bunch of boats ran home, and a very experienced skipper, competing for a series championshiop, did what you did, and died. No capsize--just a "freak accident" in a 60+ storm front. In both cases, the R/C penalized the skippers who valued safety over trophies by not cancelling.

In that case, "fortunately" it was the skipper and not one of his crew... But an entire family suffered, and both the deceased and the R/C were called to question by a lot of people including me.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah - what was the "Freak Accident?" Every sailor is at risk every time you board your vessel regardless of whether you go out or not. People die in this sport - so what? They die driving cars to NASCAR events too... Airplanes crash, trains collide... Calculated risk is what sailing is all about... Chill...

sten

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2010 : 09:57:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Yeah - what was the "Freak Accident?" Every sailor is at risk every time you board your vessel regardless of whether you go out or not. People die in this sport - so what? They die driving cars to NASCAR events too... Airplanes crash, trains collide... Calculated risk is what sailing is all about... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think it involved a boom... I know it involved extreme conditions that were forecast well in advance and could be seen for over an hour before they hit--I remember it vividly and it was over 15 years ago. And it was no C&C 39--it was a 23' Sonar--one of just a few that stayed out when the R/C went ahead with the race.

"Calculated risk"... with a bad algorithm.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/24/2010 10:06:36

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2010 : 10:11:50

Great video Sten. I love their books.

Renzo, thanks for sharing and great job handling what could have been a horrible situation. Did you have Doppler on your phone? How were you assessing the track and strength of the storm?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> two tornadoes were confirmed on shore a couple of miles from the race course, <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Two twisters? That's scary. That must be highly unusual weather for you folks up there right?

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2010 : 10:27:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Yeah - what was the "Freak Accident?" Every sailor is at risk every time you board your vessel regardless of whether you go out or not. People die in this sport - so what? They die driving cars to NASCAR events too... Airplanes crash, trains collide... Calculated risk is what sailing is all about... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think it involved a boom... I know it involved extreme conditions that were forecast well in advance and could be seen for over an hour before they hit--I remember it vividly and it was over 15 years ago. And it was no C&C 39--it was a 23' Sonar--one of just a few that stayed out when the R/C went ahead with the race.

"Calculated risk"... with a bad algorithm.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sorry Safety Curmudgeon - "Minding the Boom" but yet failing to do so is your own fault. Nothing calculated about that at all - never mind the size of the vessel. My boom has enough heft to it that it could sheer my head clean off...

I've seen many a storm way off and had no choice but to deal with it as we can only move under power at about 5 knots... Dealing with storms is part of proper seamanship. Those who tuck tail and run will always lack the experience and skills to deal when they have no choice.

sten

the other "safety curmudgeon."

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2010 : 11:05:53

I agree with Sten that you'll never learn how to sail in adverse conditions until you stay out and sail in adverse conditions. That having been said, I have long believed that, although the C25 is capable of carrying its crew safely through horrendous conditions, it's generally better judgment to keep it within spitting distance of shelter, and to head there when storm conditions threaten. I always said I wouldn't sail intentionally into a storm until I had a boat that was built for the task. My C&C 35 Landfall is ruggedly built and up to the task, and I don't run from bad weather as I used to, but I still treat the weather with the greatest respect. While I sailed my C25, I was perfectly content to see myself as a fair-weather sailor. I didn't see that term as a reflection upon my personal limitations. It was a reflection on the limitations of my boat.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2010 : 12:27:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> He freely acknowledged that he made a misjudgment. In his initial post he said: " Most of the fleet dropped out before the storm hit. We (un-wisely) followed the two leaders; a C-34 and a C30 around the 2nd mark because I thought we would beat the storm across the finish line...." When dealing with the weather, you can't always make the right calls. Having got himself into the fix, he did a good job extricating himself from it. It sounds like a hard lesson well-learned! <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah, You're right Steve. Renzo, a situation I would have run from for sure, but you were well prepared & did a good job with it. And Sten, very little of what you wrote has anything to do with this situation. YOU shouldn't go looking for situations much less a 25. Enough bad will happen when you TRY to avoid trouble to teach good seamanship.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2010 : 12:28:41

killer pic Ray ........

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2010 : 12:32:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...I have long believed that, although the C25 is capable of carrying its crew safely through horrendous conditions, it's generally better judgment to keep it within spitting distance of shelter, and to head there when storm conditions threaten. I always said I wouldn't sail intentionally into a storm until I had a boat that was built for the task...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...and the Sonar is even less so... It's a very quick, cuddy-cabin, one-design racer designed specifically for western Long Island Sound's summer doldrums. Sailing one out there under the forecast of a "big front, 60 to over 70", and staying out there with the greenish-black wall approaching on the horizon, was everything but good seamanship. Not cancelling the race was equal negligence.

I don't really know the precise conditions Renzo stayed out in or the warnings he had, but I know a lot about this other situation. The racer's mentality was apparently similar in both cases. But especially when you're responsible for your crew, and other people might have to attempt rescues in those conditions, I'll call the skipper who stays out there because "it's racing"... negligent. Of course this other skipper isn't around to worry about what anybody calls it. And I think when you know people involved in something like this... see the funeral... and think about the family and the aftermath..., it changes your attitude.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/24/2010 12:52:31

glen
Captain

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359 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2010 : 13:56:36

Sorry to stir the fire I was there, and we did what was needed to be done. I was not the skipper, but the last thing I wanted was to be in the Clinton River, and I made that opinion clear to Renzo. Dave you have NO Knowledge of that river or how far we are down it. The other boats that you think made such a good decision came a lot closer to danger then we did. In the future get all the facts and conditions before you jump on someone. It’s OK to preach about what you would do, But I will not let you criticize another skipper for there decisions. Like Sten I prefer to stay out in open water where I have better control. And by the way some of what Sten was saying very much had to do with the situation. The severe part of the storms here are uasally less then 15 minutes (bet you didn’t know that did you). On another point I am always sorry to hear about mishaps especially the ones like you mentioned. My heart goes out to those family members also, but again you weren’t out there on Anchor Bay. I can speak for myself and I was fully aware of the position of the boom as well as the proximity of all lines in relation to ALL of my body parts. Just the act of safely driving home every day in rush hour traffic constituted good luck. What I witnessed out there was not luck but learned skill. I have sailed these lakes over 20 years, even more if you count the years in the power boats. During that time I have learned many things on Zingara, and one of those things is that he is a hell of a good skipper. I will continue to sail with him, and stand up for him. Finally as pointed out by Red Eye, if we don’t share our stories with out fear of criticism there will be volumes missing.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 08/24/2010 : 14:26:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by glen
 Sorry to stir the fire I was there, and we did what was needed to be done. I was not the skipper, but the last thing I wanted was to be in the Clinton River, and I made that opinion clear to Renzo. Dave you have NO Knowledge of that river or how far we are down it. The other boats that you think made such a good decision came a lot closer to danger then we did. In the future get all the facts and conditions before you jump on someone. It’s OK to preach about what you would do, But I will not let you criticize another skipper for there decisions. Like Sten I prefer to stay out in open water where I have better control. And by the way some of what Sten was saying very much had to do with the situation. The severe part of the storms here are uasally less then 15 minutes (bet you didn’t know that did you). On another point I am always sorry to hear about mishaps especially the ones like you mentioned. My heart goes out to those family members also, but again you weren’t out there on Anchor Bay. I can speak for myself and I was fully aware of the position of the boom as well as the proximity of all lines in relation to ALL of my body parts. Just the act of safely driving home every day in rush hour traffic constituted good luck. What I witnessed out there was not luck but learned skill. I have sailed these lakes over 20 years, even more if you count the years in the power boats. During that time I have learned many things on Zingara, and one of those things is that he is a hell of a good skipper. I will continue to sail with him, and stand up for him. Finally as pointed out by Red Eye, if we don’t share our stories with out fear of criticism there will be volumes missing.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I appreciate both of you sharing your stories, sounds like you guys made the right choice. You're both alive and well and the boat is not damaged and you gained some invaluable heavy weather sailing experience as well as renewed confidence in you and your boat's ability.

What else could you ask for?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2010 : 16:00:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by glen
 ...the last thing I wanted was to be in the Clinton River, and I made that opinion clear to Renzo... The other boats that you think made such a good decision came a lot closer to danger then we did...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">OK, there's some information that Renzo didn't share. He only said he "unwisely" stayed in the race and found himself in conditions where he could not even get his 155 genny down. I may have stepped over a line, but I could argue that I was strongly supporting what sounded like his second-guessing of his own decision, followed by defending my position against a "you can die anywhere" retort. If Renzo made the decision that he and his crew were safer by staying out than by going in, good for him. If, as it first sounded, the decision was made for the opportunity to correct out over another boat, well, that'll get me going, for reasons stated.

Peace.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2010 : 05:35:41

In posting this account, it was not my intention to stir up a hornets’ nest of controversy. I was simply giving in to the sailors’ historic weakness to spin a good yarn about a storm.
I suppose the propensity of sailors to recount the close calls they’ve had with storms, equipment failures and other challenges that Neptune and Poseidon have thrown in their course, is what gives non-sailors the, mistaken, impression that sailing is more dangerous than most other forms of human endeavor.

Nor is it my intent now, to defend my decisions, character, judgment or sailing abilities. I do however; appreciate the kind words of support from Steve, Sten, and of course, Glen. Guys, I am humbled and unworthy.

I am adding to this post only to say that I did not do what I did out of bravado, or some macho racer mentality. It was a calculated risk based on 24 years of local knowledge about the weather conditions that affect the area where I sail. Did I miscalculate? Damn right I did! Will I think twice next time? Yep! But, if I do have some other misadventure at sea, will I also think twice about posting it here?

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/25/2010 : 05:54:21

<< But, if I do have some other misadventure at sea, will I also think twice about posting it here? >>

Nay, nay I say.. tell em all about it. I post some of my misconceptions just to hear from different views, knowing even as I speak the absurdity of my descriptions. Language is such a limited art to describe what we are often into. ( OK mine is )

Most importantly, even as I write it down it changes, and I get to see a different view of it, regardless of what others may think or say.

I usta have adventures at sea, now just a lake hugging land locked old...

I Thank Everyone for their posts, as I sit here... Too Hot and no wind, I can live the day through others!!!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2010 : 06:38:18

Our most interesting stories are usually the ones about our worst mistakes, when everything went wrong, and they're the stories that are the most educational, so keep them coming. The best way to avoid criticism is to clearly and unequivocally admit your mistakes. I probably saved my job several times that way. (Boss, I know I screwed up, and I really feel bad about it, but you can be sure I'll never make that mistake again!) After you've said that, the Boss will know there's no need to chew you out, because it'll just make you feel worse.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 08/25/2010 : 07:05:56

I'm curious, if you saw a lot of the fleet dropping out due to the approaching storm, why didn't you reduce sail after deciding to stay in the race, before things got out of control?

I recall several years ago being in a race in our C-22 with fairly gusty winds. Just as we tacked, we were hit with a sudden very strong wind shift. The boat broached and we took on probably 50 gallons of water in the cockpit. Scary situation, but she popped back up and we kept sailing.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2010 : 07:50:09

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I've had bosses who lived for that opportunity!

Edited by - on

DaveR
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Response Posted - 08/25/2010 : 07:51:07

---I agree with Dave B's latest reply, thought similarly----

Glen, I say again, given the facts I was given, I would have run for sure. Renzo didn't but by his description he was well equipped, handled the situation very well and his abilities as a sailor aren't in question. Nor are yours. I am however very aware of storms, typical frontal duration, etc. It's here almost daily in FL.

Renzo, please don't take these things too personally and please continue to post your experiences. We all learn from them and this discussion is a good one.
I'm also thinking that the written word is much less descriptive than a conversation and wonder if this after-conversation would have even taken place if we were all sitting around a table listening to Renzo tell the story. I probably should not have made such a strong statement, I wasn't there and there's no way Renzo could encompass everything that happened/went through his mind at the time. In stead of making bold statements I'll ask questions next time

Edited by - on

jerlim
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Response Posted - 08/25/2010 : 09:02:16

Let's not forget, this is THE venue for any of us to tell all, and it should be heart-fully encouraged...sure - maybe you'll get your stones busted, but that's all part of the process...we love our boats and our shared experiences make us all the better sailors...I love the passion!

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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Response Posted - 08/25/2010 : 09:26:54

Steve, thanks for the advice but I believe that criticism is unavoidable. You are damned if you do and damned if you don't. I haven't had a boss for many years but as I remember it, the good ones let you make your own mistakes and understood your need to make them. There was no pleasing the bad bosses anyway so I usually just ignored them and got on with the job at hand. Maybe that's why I ain't rich.

Perhaps it would have been better if I had told the story this way:

The sky’s getting darker
Can’t see the channel marker
Wind and rain slashing the sails
Thor’s hammer pounding lightning bolt nails

There’s nothing to do but sit and steer
Nothing to do but swallow the fear
And try to keep the boat on course
While the wind keeps blowing past gale force

Sky’s getting even darker yet
The marker is over there I bet
But the rain’s so heavy I can’t make it out
The wind so strong I don’t dare come about

There’s nothing to do but sit and steer
Nothing to do but swallow the fear
And try to keep the boat on course
While the wind keeps blowing past gale force

Now the Jib is fouled ‘round the headstay
I can’t control it. No how! No way!
The crew wants go on deck and get it free
But the decision to risk it is up to me

There’s nothing to do but sit and steer
Nothing to do but swallow the fear
And try to keep the boat on course
While the wind keeps blowing past gale force

Finally a break in the storm
A chance to run for port, where it’s safe and warm
The crew goes on deck and douses the sails
I start the motor and crank it up till it wails

There’s nothing to do but sit and steer
Nothing to do but swallow the fear
And try to keep the boat on course
While the wind keeps blowing past gale force

Back in dock, Bourbons in hand
We hear about the devastation on land
It’s unbelievable. How could it be?
As bad as it was, we were safer at sea.

There’s nothing to do but sit and steer
Nothing to do but swallow the fear
And try to keep the boat on course
While the wind keeps blowing past gale force

Edited by - Renzo on 08/25/2010 09:28:05

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