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Nationals start tomorrow!

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2010 : 17:21:21

Sorry it went that way for you Jim. It is interesting that this followed the questions I asked in the other thread about winning in the jury room versus winning on the water. I asked the same question on the message board of my home club, and after teh consensus of both discussions was that a winin the jury room was basically an admission that you were an inferior sailor, I decided that there is no reason for me to go that way.

Jim I have tonnes of respect for you. I hope the Flyer works out, and that you are able to meet your goals with her. I hope this regatta doesn't sour your relationship with the association, and that you return to visit.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2010 : 18:30:45

I could understand the protest if the non-owner helmsman was Chris Dickson. But Chris the substitute crew... ??

Oh well, I've seen this in everything from Optis (the parents) to the America's Cup (the lawyers). But in class racing, you need some defined boundaries for the class, including mods to the boat and who can participate.

Now, what about rule M.1?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2010 : 19:18:53

If the national association adopts a racing rule that produces an illogical or unreasonable result, the fault is not with the person who insists on the enforcement of the rule. The fault is with the rule itself. That's why I am generally so opposed to the frequent tinkering with our bylaws and racing rules, by each successive group of officers, who, for some reason, believe they have the expertise needed to write racing rules and bylaws, simply because they were elected to an office. They don't foresee the unintended consequences of their bad draftsmanship. Well-crafted laws and rules don't produce illogical or unreasonable results.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1778 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2010 : 06:09:13

I agree with Steve that “Well-crafted laws and rules don't produce illogical or unreasonable results.”

However as I read back over this thread and think about some of the related threads from as recently as earlier this year about “the National’s and “more involvement in races” and “regional regattas” and overlay that with the fact that Catalina’s are primarily cruising boats with some configurations out of production for @20 years, it strikes me that what may be needed are two classes for racing. One would incorporate the existing strict “one class” rules so those who are really into racing can have as level a playing field as desired. The second would be a less stringent class with rules designed for the occasional racer and/or for boats that have various modifications (or non racing equipment) so those sailors who want to participate locally or on the national level can do so, have fun sailing, and enjoy the camaraderie with others who sail like type boats.

This thread brings up some interesting issues related to the existing race rules as written, modified and interpreted; and yes, maybe they need to be reviewed with an eye towards better “crafting” them. However if you step back and look at the bigger picture I can not believe that anyone who is on the fence about participating in a Catalina Association “National” regatta would be swayed toward doing so based on some of the comments related to the nature of the protests filed in this year’s race.

I guess the issue I raise is how to better walk the fine line between having a “competitive” race series AND encouraging/attaining greater participation.

Edited by - bigelowp on 10/01/2010 08:47:00

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2010 : 10:31:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bigelowp
 ...I guess the issue I raise is how to better walk the fine line between having a “competitive” race series AND encouraging/attaining greater participation.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">How about an "event" that involves everybody who races our boats, world-wide, and publicizes our race successes to the association. I won't argue that the following should replace the "National Regatta"--that suggestion has been beaten to death before. I'm just suggesting another association activity--a season-long scoring system for members' PHRF results, producing some annual awards such as "Racer of the Year", "Rookie of the Year", "Most Improved", "Dirtiest Bottom", etc... There could even be an award for whoever beat the fastest (lowest PHRF) boat across the line. Hopefully more than three C-25s, two C-250s, and two Capri 25s would participate.

The scoring could be based on how many boats raced against and beaten on corrected time in any sanctioned, handicapped (or one-design) race, so a 5th against 30 boats is as good as a bullet against six boats. Or, the top few places could be weighted to recognize the accomplishment of beating top boats. Racers would simply report two numbers for each race. An Excel worksheet could do all of the math. There could be divisions for the different models, or everyone could be in one big competition (or both). Scores could be updated and posted periodically so everyone could follow the competition... I would suggest doing this on an honor system, but winners could be required to submit official supporting documentation (often already on the web).

The reason for including the number of boats raced against is to level the competition between boats racing in big fleets with those racing in smaller ones. Slightly weighting the top few places would recognize that no matter how many competitors, the top few boats are probably tough competition.

This raises lots of questions and gives almost no answers... If it has any merit, a "committee" of racers (not me) should formulate the details and test some "what-if" scenarios. Just try to forget entirely that this came from a non-racing $+!NKP*++ER!

This event would recognize that we're an international association with skilled racers and interested spectators all around the country, continent, and perhaps world, and would pit all or any of them against each other.

Anybody heard of such a thing from other class associations? Who (how many) might participate?

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/01/2010 10:42:11

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2010 : 11:04:31

Based on Jim's account, the problems with this national regatta appear to have been the consequence of human frailty, and you can't fix human frailty. Jim says he worked the foredeck and his crew took the helm, and that violated the C25 racing rules. He didn't think anyone would make an issue of it, and, although he didn't say so, he probably didn't think it was very important, because he does it all the time in PHRF racing. As a matter of fact, I do too - in PHRF racing. It's legal in PHRF racing. But it is important, because it's a C25 rule, and you risk a penalty if you violate a rule. You can't rely on your opponents not raising the issue. Jim freely admits he made a misjudgment.

Likewise, based on Jim's account (because we haven't heard Scott's account yet), Scott was apparently correct in raising an issue about the length of the pole and for Jim not having the helm, but, by Jim's account, some of Scott's allegations and arguments might have been unseemly.

If Jim had cut the pole to legal length before the regatta, and if he had taken the helm, he might have become this year's National Champion.

In the future, there will be other instances in which the rules are violated, and someone will protest, and someone will be penalized, and emotions will be raw as a result. If you participate in a national championship event, you should attend with the intent to obey every rule, and, treat your opponents with respect. It takes mental toughness to compete in anything, and anyone who doesn't have the mental toughness to deal with rules and protests probably shouldn't participate. Those who do participate are likely to make mistakes occasionally, and we shouldn't be overly quick to judge them harshly. They are, above all, our friends.

I love to race, and wouldn't think of quitting because of an unpleasant experience with a protest. Other sailors who don't love racing probably can't understand why we would put ourselves through such unpleasantness. There's no other way to explain it. We love to race. Each member has the freedom to choose whether he wants to participate in racing. It isn't for everyone.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/01/2010 11:17:42

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2010 : 17:28:38

I would probably race some if it was a more relaxed "for fun" event. I'm not really interested in the aggressive/gotta win at all costs type racing. With that type racing it eventually becomes stressful and that's too close to being like work.

Probably if I started out in the "for fun" events I would eventually end up moving into the aggressive/gotta win type racing.

The rules or the rules, break them and you should expect to pay the consequence. That's what keeps things fair. Then again, sometimes in various organizations some rules/laws are more serious than others and some of the rules/laws by general consensus among those involved are not strictly enforced. There's kind of a gentleman's agreement that you don't push the particular rule/law, and I won't either.

If someone I knew took their time and went out of their way to show me hospitality and the local area I would NEVER think of filing a protest even if I were technically correct in doing so. Even if it meant I lost the race or the championship. It just ain't cool and I would rather win by being better than the other guy at whatever it is I'm participating in.

Edited by - GaryB on 10/02/2010 03:09:55

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2010 : 17:56:48

Tough with three boats.
Much more fun when the race committee has to deal with 20-30 boats converging at the mark at same time and there's lots of gel coat missing.

Edited by - on

dave holtgrave
Captain

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USA
427 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2010 : 19:21:37

it is too bad that we ahd three boats in that area.

it surprises me that the san diego PHRF system wou;d be added or included in the classes rules.
if i would have flown out there how could i have found a boat that would compete with a spinnaker set up boat??

i for one quit racing just because of the stupid nonsence that this regatta attracted.
i also sail remote controlled boats and it is just as bad as people wanting to do anything to win.

we need those guys to come up with a way to chill out before they ruin the sport.

it is just a sailboat race.
at one point in my life i went thru very serious competetion like this and any rule was used as a deterrance rather than a guide.

clean it up. take it the fair way and start enjoying life before you drop dead from a heart attack.

this national should be noted as another lack of perticapation and if there isn't a minimum number of boats showing ther regatta should be cancelled.
i will take my soap box and go home now!!!!!!!!!!!!

dave holtgrave
5722 sk/tr
sailing carlyle lake in southern illinois
and enjoying it.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2010 : 20:18:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Peregrine
 Much more fun when the race committee has to deal with 20-30 boats converging at the mark at same time...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Like this at the Shields 30 National Regatta here a couple of weeks ago... The Shields is a 30' classic S&S design. There were 27 boats in this race (a couple more were in the regatta) from Long Island Sound, Newport, the Chesapeake, a few from Chicago and (maybe) San Fransisco. Newport got club honors. When 27 identical one-design boats arrive at the first windward mark, things get "interesting". Every sail appeared to be indentical, which is undoubtedly a function of their class rules.

Taken from Sarge:

<center>First windward mark--a little yelling but not that much</center>

<center>Shields 30 preparing the spin</center>

I know--this is a Catalina Nationals thread... but I figured it'd be nice to have some photos of something, and this was the only national regatta here recently. Besides, they're pretty boats. Sarge was next to one on the hard last winter.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/02/2010 04:27:26

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