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keel winch replacement insights

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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/10/2010 : 09:13:33

Hey all - I'm planning on replacing our winch(original equipment), this off season. It appears mechanicaly sound, but it's becoming more difficult to raise the keel, in spite of annual cleaning and lube. I'd like to learn why others replaced theirs, and what the experience has been w/ the new one.
MANY THANKS

Jerry

Edited by - on

Tim M
1st Mate

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60 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2010 : 11:13:44

There's a good chance your turning ball in the cable tube is siezed and the stainless cable is slowly wearing a groove into the bronze ball. When I replaced my original winch (as well as cable, attachments and turning ball) this past spring it was because of major rust to the drum (the original ones were painted not galvanized) and because of increased effort required. The frozen ball had a groove over 1/2" deep worn into it that was causing increased friction. If you take your boat out of the water in the fall, you should check that the ball is not frozen when it goes back in in the spring. A bit of a PITA but worth the effort.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2010 : 16:18:11

Tim is spot on. The ball stops turning and the cable starts cutting, when it gets to the SS pin the ball turns on things get ugly. The cable no longer runs fair to the keel and you not only saw thw SS pin you also start sawing the bottom of your boat.

Edited by - pastmember on 10/10/2010 16:32:57

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2010 : 16:40:14

Make sure you double clamp and use the right hose material. When I replaced my ball Catalina Direct was emphatic that the Marine exhaust hose was the best hose to resist abrasion.

Edited by - on

Tim M
1st Mate

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60 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2010 : 16:44:38

Oh yes, the new winch was one of those love/hate stories about CD. After intalling and winding up the cable, the keel would only remain up if you held onto the handle - luckily I tried it out on the trailer with the boat jacked up so there was only a one foot fall. After discussions with Lowell at CD - which weren't all that helpful, but he was honestly concerned and followed up by e-mail - I realized I was not hearing a clear ratcheting sound after the winch was installed. Logical analysis revealed - because the problem area was not visible after installation - that the forward bolt on the port side top step ledger, was interferring with the spring on the ratchet pawl. After removing stairs and winch for the fourth time and turning the bolt around the problem was fixed. The new winch was not an exact replacement in that the ratchet pawl had been moved to a different spot - probably to get it up and out of the way from possible interferrence and catching stuff from underneath - and the obstruction was evidently not anticipated and maybe doesn't exist on some models. The construction on my boat was all factory original. Reading of a similar experience of someone here on the forum made me double check before I took anything for granted. Thanks to all who take the time to relate their experiences.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2010 : 17:28:29

Hmm...I've faithfully replaced the lift line and ball every 2 years, but admittedly, have not (as I recall) done much in the off-year w/ respect to the turning ball. We have maybe 4 - 6 more sailing days this season

, then I'll get the chance to take a good (long...) look...I'll report back at that time. MANY THANKS for the insights!

Edited by - on

mga
1st Mate

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USA
38 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2010 : 18:37:02

If you do choose to replace your winch, please give me a call. I've been trying to find a used (replaced) winch to try out a redesign idea (see "wanted" ad here in C25 swap meet), but so far no luck. I'd like to work on it this winter if given the chance. I'll pay for your trouble and shipping -- or come and get it if close enough. Thanks!

Edited by - on

Boomeroo
Navigator

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Australia
129 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2010 : 23:24:50

Great info. I have a ball &pin and a tube sent out from Cat.direct .
Boats ball has not been changed for some years by PO,s.
1 How does tube and Ball align with the waterline. Is it possible to load up the bow. in shallow water with keel on sea bed and change without slipping the boat ( no Trailer)
2 the photo shows the black tube but also a section of white tube . Is that used as a second protection .ie over the standard tube ,
3 How do I judge the Winch condition , and do they fail /collapse ??

Spring is here so not keen to slip the boat until next April..

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2010 : 04:47:30

Mike - I tried emailing you directly, guess you didn't get it...will do!

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mga
1st Mate

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USA
38 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2010 : 06:45:00

Jerry -- Not sure why your email didn't make it through. I'll include correct address here just in case....
mandlaim1@sbcglobal.net Looking forward to hearing from you. Thanks.

Edited by - on

Unsinkable2
Captain

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USA
273 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2010 : 07:23:34

I think the pvc is just there as an extra protection for the hose, so the hose doesn't get bumped, etc.
The advice I got when I bought my sk was to replace the winch, cable, ball, pin, hose, and cable. Glad I did, that's one thing I don't want to be worrying about.

I did however, in a stroke of miserly idiocy, decide not to order a new winch handle and just use the old one. With the boat off the trailer for our maiden voyage, boat full of family and motoring out of the marina onto the lake I discovered the old winch handle did not fit the new CD winch.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2010 : 07:58:39

Don't lose or forget the little wood wedge or else the angle of the winch will be wrong and your handle will not make complete revolutions.

Edited by - pastmember on 10/11/2010 08:00:04

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2010 : 09:01:41

Wedge, what wedge?...We don't need no stinken wedges...
Oh-oh, there's no wedge at the moment, never has been one...maybe that's part of the problem...

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2010 : 13:49:42

When replacing the cable and turning ball, am I correct that the order, after pulling the boat, would be:
1. Slack and remove cable from winch
2. Remove turning ball
3. Drop cable, remove from keel
4. Attach new cable to keel, insert up into hull
5. Install new turning ball
6. Attach new cable to winch drum and take up slack
Would it be better to remove the cable before removing the ball?
Is a plug needed to keep the ball from dropping in the tube and getting stuck?

Edited by - on

Frank Law
Navigator

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USA
159 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2010 : 14:04:01

A very good subject for all we swingers. I replaced winch , cable turning ball , hose , about 4 years ago.. at the same time replaced the centerboard pivot pin and pin mtg brackets.. The pivot pin hole in the keel showed wear then , but I didn't attempt any fix at that time .
Lately when lowering the keel slowly , when the keel is 3/4 of the way down you feel a clunk like the keel dropped a few inches but not all the way down.. This is sort of scary knowing what can happen if the keel free falls all the way..
Two questions.... What is the most likely culprit for the clunk..
.... Can I install the a keel bushing by hand drilling and not using a drill press ,Has anyone done this??
"ABOUT TIME" is being hauled out today or Friday..

Frank Law
"ABOUT TIME"
3519 , 1983 , swk ,sr

Edited by - on

Tim M
1st Mate

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60 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2010 : 16:32:32

With new winch, cable, attachments, and turning ball, I occasionally hear a clunk caused by the cable having 'piled up' on itself as it is being wound on the drum in a static position. After so many turns the pile falls over and the keel drops a few inches taking up the sudden slack caused by the smaller diameter of the empty drum as opposed to that of the pile of cable. Having the wedge in place between the winch and top step to make the angle correct as the cable winds up is important but the occasional bump and grind I think is normal.
This past spring I installed the sleeve/bushing by renting a large 1/2" 90 deg. angled drill, bought a 1 1/4" drill bit and drilled it out while on a trailer, lowering the supported keel with a hydralic jack. Of course it also involved first 'work hardening' the bit and hole, because of too much speed and not enough pressure, so I had to take it to a machine shop for sharpening. Then very slowly, with cutting oil, amd lots of pressure on the drill from a fulcrum between drill and trailer bunk, I succeeded. The rest was easy.

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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2010 : 16:54:42

Hey Tim - any photos?

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2010 : 10:04:36

My boat's a wing keel but, when reading threads on this subject I often wonder why nobody has ever considered installing a small electric winch instead of the hand crank model. It would be a great modification especially if you single hand a lot and you could operate it from the cockpit.

Food for thought?

Edited by - on

Tim M
1st Mate

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60 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2010 : 10:44:09

Sorry Jerry, in the heat of the moment I never think to grab the camera. I did find some photos of the process I used posted in a thread on a related topic in the archives however. One other point: if all you're doing is the sleeve, don't buy it from CD. Theirs are too short. Wait until you have the keel down so you can measure the exact thickness and have one cut to the right size. I did use the one from CD and filled in the voids at each end by first wrapping the old pin with teflon tape (so it would release) placed it in the glued-in sleeve (after the epoxy was set) filled the voids at the ends with JB Weld and stuck the biggest 1 1/4" stainless washer I could find on the outside. I tapped the pin out after the JB cured and milled the new pillow blocks down to the appropriate width with a 10" disc sander (another tedious step). As far as actually dropping the keel, the jack method makes a couple of the steps quicker but the threaded rod method makes realignment easier.

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