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Preferred weight of cloth for C250 110 Genoa?

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/19/2010 : 07:40:28

I've gotten quotes for a new 110 Genoa for my 1998 C250WK (standard rig). One of the quotes offers 7.3 oz weight, and one offers 5.65 oz, and the others do not specify. (All are Dacron.) I assume that the tradeoff is durability vs. light wind performance. Are there other considerations for weight of the fabric?

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 11/19/2010 07:40:54

piseas
Former Treasurer

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Response Posted - 11/19/2010 : 10:20:52

Rick, Any reason not going with a 135? I too am looking at new jib. Who are you considering? I have gotten quotes from everyone. I saw the ad for 15% w/ kellyhanson thru the Lake Havasu meet. They gave me 2 quotes, 115 for $575 + $125 for Sunbrella and for the 135 $675 + $155 for sunbrella. These prices are w.o 15% off but still seems high to me.
Steve A

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 11/19/2010 : 11:58:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 Rick, Any reason not going with a 135? I too am looking at new jib. Who are you considering? I have gotten quotes from everyone. I saw the ad for 15% w/ kellyhanson thru the Lake Havasu meet. They gave me 2 quotes, 115 for $575 + $125 for Sunbrella and for the 135 $675 + $155 for sunbrella. These prices are w.o 15% off but still seems high to me.
Steve A
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have a 110 currently. If I had my choice I'd use it another year to be more sure what size I want, but the small tears I found at the end of the season concern me. I don't want to risk losing my jib during ing season next year.

The 110 tacks very nicely without getting fouled on the mast or shrouds. Since I'm a river sailor and do a lot of tacking, easy tacking is very important. That, plus the fact that the boat seems to be easily overpowered, makes me lean toward the 110. If I waited until next year it might be a different answer.

My quotes for the 110 are about the same that you got (without the 15% discount, but prices supposedly reflect out-of-season discount). I'm not getting as many quotes as you, as I'm trying to stick with "local" lofts (between Annapolis-Delmarva, maybe as far north as NYC) to support the local economy and get more personal attention.

Any comments on the weight of the cloth?

Edited by - on

piseas
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Response Posted - 11/19/2010 : 13:07:06

Rick, I suggest you talk to your local lofts as they are more knowledgeable re this matter as what weight to go with. I did find this on our site:

Lighter weights .75, 1.5 are good for light winds. Medium weights 3.5, 4.5 etc are great for general sailing conditions. Heavier weights of 5.5, 6.0, 6.5 and 7.0 are stronger cloths and good for heavier breezes.

If you are in a breezier area, a heavier cloth obviously. 7 does seem a little heavy to me, however. What are your average winds in your area?
Steve A

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OLarryR
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Response Posted - 11/19/2010 : 17:43:47

That is quite a difference in sail weight. It would seem that the heavier weight would be superior for low stretch but that is not necessaily the case. Dacron is made in various performance grades and the best grades use low tenacity thread fibers. The weave is much tighter, denser in the higher grades of dacron and because of this there is less need to use whatever they call it...bonding/filler and therefore a lighter weight Dacron could be superior for low stretch characteristics. It is hard to compare different mfrs sailcloth unless they used the sailcoth from the same mfr. If they did, then the comparison is much easier. Challenge sailcloth is very popular and it comes in about 4 grades of Dacron with the lower to higher grade material as follows: Challenge Performance, Challenge High Modulus, Challenge High Aspect and Challenge Marblehead. If the sailcoth mfrs are different then it makes it very hard to compare because you would have to look at the strength to stretch curves of each matl and some mfrs do not publish that data. Challenge does publish that data - Search on Mack Sails for an explanation of Dacron grades or go to the Challenge website. Then of course, it's the reputation of the sailmaker that factors into all of this as well.

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/19/2010 21:02:25

willy
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Response Posted - 11/19/2010 : 17:57:25

Rick,
I'm pretty sure that the stock jib is 6.5 oz. Larry's point about the weave seems valid, but surprises me as I always thought that heavier weight was due to higher thread count(more densely woven - like sheets) and therefore would have less stretch. Looks like I might have to rethink this. Those tears along the leech can definitely be attributed to UV Protection failure. I'll bet the closer to the luff you go the better your sail integrity.
Steve from what I've seen so far the prices you have been quoted seem extremely reasonable!
Willy

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OLarryR
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Response Posted - 11/19/2010 : 21:57:15

I was in a bit of a rush with my last posting..dinner was on the table. What Steve indicated about sail weight - lighter weight for low wind conditions and heavier weight for higher wind conditions...That's good advice. Also, the word I was searching for in my last posting when I mentioned bonding/filler was "resin". I guess what I was thinking regarding your original question was not so much what one would buy for different wind conditions but how does one compare two similar sized sails but one comes lighter weight than the other and does that mean that a heavier weight sail has got to automatically be the better sail for the money. In the case of comparing the weights you listed for the same size sail and reviewing Steve's guide for sail weights, 5.63 oz weight and 7.3 oz weight would both fall into the range for use in stronger breezes but what gets tricky is then what makes up that weight - If the heavier weight sail was heavier because it was a tighter weave/higher density sail cloth, then that would be far superior for use in stronger breezes compared to the 5.65 oz if it was made in a not so dense/less tight weave. However, what is also a possibility is that a heavier weight sail could actually be made of a lower grade/lighter density/less tight weave and uses a significantly thicker coat of resin on it and that is what has contributed to it's heavier weight. The concern is that the resin eventually breaks down and the sail loses shape as it stretches out and this will happen much earlier in the sail's lifetime. Now...if both sails you are considering are being offered by the same sailmaker, then you probably can go by his recommendation of which to purchase - He can evaluate that by the type of sailing you normally do in what weather conditions and how often you generally go sailing each week/month. He can also provide you with at least some basic info as to how each sail should hold up. The difficulty, though, is if these two sails are being offered by different sailmakers.....then you have a problem. It's hard comparing the hype that each maker "spins" on the cloth he uses. If by chance they both use the cloth from the same sailcloth mfr...well then the comparison can be made.

Anyway...much easier if you know someone else has been real happy with their sails...then just buy what they purchased . LOL

For comparison, I bought my sails from Quantum. They were custom-made, came down and took dimensions off my boat and had their South Africa facility make the sails - Main and a 150 Furling Rig Genoa. I indicated I sail year-round and average 2-3 times a week except in the colder months...but I still go out every month. These sails were going to be used for all weather conditions and also used frequently and so a proper sail weight and weave needed to hold up to abuse and not stretch out early in it's lifetime. My Quantum Main and Genoa are made out of Challenge 5.6 oz High Aspect sailcloth. A check of the data curves on the Challenge website for High Aspect matl indicates significantly lower stretch than the 2 lower grades of Dacron and weight is sized properly for that matl used in strong breezes (I am not talking about continually 25 mph..normally 10-15mph with sometimes higher gusts and in middle of summer ...lighter winds but sails used year-round). If the sails were made out of High Modulus which many sailmakers use, then to get equivalent low stretch sail for heavy breezes...more resin would be added and weight would be perhaps .5 - 1 oz weight greater than for High Aspect...I am only guessing right now. If it was out of Challenge Performance (sounds like a great matl but is actually their lowest Dacron sailcloth grade), then add another .5 - 1oz also mainly due to addl resin.

Some individuals have different sails for different wind conditions and just change them out when needed. So other Dacron Matls and other weight sailcloth may be appropriate.

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/19/2010 22:05:45

willy
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Response Posted - 11/22/2010 : 17:19:31

Larry...GREAT INFO!

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willy
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Response Posted - 01/17/2011 : 19:01:52

Wow! I just got a quote from North Sails in Annapolis for a new 110 Dacron Jib. $1,515.00! I'm not certain if their material is worth paying double for but I'm figuring I could buy 2 jibs for that based on my other quotes. The North Sails Jib does sound good though...has anybody found more reasonable pricing at another North Sails loft? This price was so off the scale I am thinking they just don't want to deal with what is to them a smaller job.
Willy

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djbano
1st Mate

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67 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2011 : 20:43:19

I just purchased a 6 oz. Hood Vektron Main and 100 jib for my 98 WK TR. I live in CO and ended up sailing with the reef in most of the season and the 135 rolled to about a 110. I am getting the foot of the main shortened by about a foot. My sail area will be about the same as a regular rig 110/115 and full headsail. I should enjoy the added power of taller foils.

Here is what I rec'd from Tim Woodhouse, prez of Hood:

Here is the quote for your sails with the specs I assumed you want from your
email. I think the jib should be a little smaller and not overlap the mast.
If a headsail is reefed more time than fully set, it is too big for the conditions in
which you sail.

Mainsail
This is shortened on the foot by 1' to 10.0' from the normal 11.0' as you asked
and I agree.Sail is loose footed.

The sail is 137 sq.ft. Hood Dacron 6.5 oz. 1229.00

Option would be Hood Vektron at 6.0 oz. 1443.00
( In lieu of Dacron)
1 Reef below lower batten needed 109.00

4 full length tapered epoxy e-glass battens 240.00

Sail numbers in Blue, Red, Black or Green at 10.00 per digit ( both sides)

Jib
My recommendation is for a 100% overlap jib. ( This is a little smaller than he
thought but my opinion as more usable fully un furled)

The jib is 123 sq.ft. Hood Dacron 7.0 oz. 853.00

Option for Hood Vektron at 6.0 oz, 1103.00
(in Lieu of Dacron)
Hood Sea Foam luff pad 87.00

Choice of acrylic or UV Dacron sunshield 180.00

I also spoke with Gary Swenson who offered something similar (110 jib) but slightly less expensive in Dacron and 20% off (that was mid-December).

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