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time for a new outboard...

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JoshMcCullock
1st Mate

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USA
68 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2010 : 11:43:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 [quote]Originally posted by JoshMcCullock But take a look in your bilge--if there's longitudinal upward bulge, that was the trunk the swing keel partially lifted into. If on the other hand there's a sort of shallow well with keel bolts on the flat bottom, that "well" is the stub for the fin keel. I haven't heard of a conversion from a fin, but I can imagine that the version of the wing made for the factory would bolt to the same stub as the fin, while the version made to fit into the swing trunk might have been just for retrofitting swingers. But now I've told you way more than I know...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ok, at the risk of sounding ignorant...again. Unless I'm completley missing something or I'm skippering a true Frankenstein boat, I don't have any access to the bilge under the cabin. I've looked everywhere and there's really nowhere except a very small opening under the companionway stairs. Is there suppose to be an access somewhere? I have hoses connected to the cockpit mounted manual bilge pump under all the benches in the cockpit and cabin. But that wouldn't be the bilge would it?

Thanks in advance, I've been puzzled by this one since we got the boat. You just happened to remind me

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2010 : 13:23:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JoshMcCullock
 Ok, at the risk of sounding ignorant... I don't have any access to the bilge under the cabin. I've looked everywhere and there's really nowhere except a very small opening under the companionway stairs. Is there suppose to be an access somewhere? I have hoses connected to the cockpit mounted manual bilge pump under all the benches in the cockpit and cabin. But that wouldn't be the bilge would it?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">No risk whatsoever! What cockpit layout do you have, specifically on the port side... If you have two facing seats on port with a table between them, that's the "dinette" interior. If you have one seat (settee) between the galley and the forward bulkhead with a table that folds up against the bulkhead, that's the "traditional" interior. A settee that forms an "L" along the port side and bulkhead with a removable pedestal table is the "L-dinette" interior.

The regular dinette (which I had) has covers over openings on the tops of both seats, that open up to storage wells underneath and also to the the bilge. The pump on the side of the cockpit seat should be connected to a hose that draws water out of the bilge, and is visible from that seat opening in the dinette. The "bilge" is basically the interior of the hull beneath the cabin sole, seats, berths, etc. Its low point is the keel stub for the fin keel, or on both sides of the swing keel trunk.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/05/2010 13:24:28

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2010 : 13:25:23

You might be missing some parts from your backstay, Josh. The non-adjustable backstay was attached to the transom at only one point. The single wire of the adjustable backstay was split into two wires, about 4-5 ft above the transom, like yours, and each of those wires was attached separately to the transom.

It looks like your boat originally had an adjustable backstay, but at some time, some of the hardware was removed. I don't think it would be expensive to replace the parts. As I recall, you'd need a couple of blocks that will fit the wire, a stainless steel ring and 2-3 small shackles. It would help if you can look at a C25 with an adjustable backstay, to see what hardware you need, and how it's rigged.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 12/05/2010 13:26:14

JoshMcCullock
1st Mate

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USA
68 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2010 : 22:36:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 [quote]Originally posted by JoshMcCullock
 The "bilge" is basically the interior of the hull beneath the cabin sole, seats, berths, etc. Its low point is the keel stub for the fin keel, or on both sides of the swing keel trunk.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thanks Dave! Ok, I think we're getting closer to the bottom of this mystery keel.
I have the "L Dinette" setup. It looks like we may have the remains of a swing keel, but you'll have to tell me. I uploaded a quick video just for the sake of time. Check it out here...

http://gallery.me.com/joshmccullock#100048

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2010 : 08:31:53

Great video--a model for other discussions like this! Here's my take... It's definitely an ex-swinger. You're looking at the sides and front of the keel trunk, and the bottom of the hull--meaning that's your bilge. The thing sticking up was where the cable came through to the winch. Because it's below the waterline, it had a hose clamped to it. It's probably been plugged with epoxy. The winch was mounted below the top companionway step.

In that aft picture in the quarterberth, you're also looking down at the bottom. Water won't collect there because the bottom slopes forward toward the keel. The hose goes over into the sail locker and up to the starboard deck vent, setting up air circulation in the locker (because your fuel is in there). The vent on one side is pointed forward, and the other aft.

Your view inside the quarterberth, through the opening, is of the bottom of the hull. There's no bilge below that.

One issue that comes to mind, from what I see, is whether water (from rain or whatever) can migrate from one "compartment" of your bilge to another in order to be removed by the bilge pump. Some of our swinger owners here might be able to comment about that.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/07/2010 09:44:59

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2010 : 08:59:12

Josh, based on the pictures in your original post above, you have the dinette interior, not the L-dinette. After looking ar the video, I firmly agree that you have a swing keel boat that was retrofitted with a wing keel. The hump under the forward dinette seat was the swing keel trunk holding the front part of the swing keel when lowered. The cone shape sticking up under the quarterberth was where the swing keel cable entered the boat but is now plugged. Access to your bilge will be from several points: 1. Through the floorboard hatch between the 2 dinette seats on the port side. 2. Under the quarterberth which you have already filmed where the cone shape is and 3. the battery compartment, also filmed, where your bilge pump hose is. The large white hose is your bilge exhaust air vent hose. The early model C-25's built before the gas compartment was sealed off from the storage locker have the air vents. you should have a cowl at each corner of the stern. The one facing aft has the hose attached to it.

Edited by - dmpilc on 12/07/2010 10:30:08

Tom Gauntt
Navigator

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204 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2010 : 09:45:42

Josh, I also concur that you have a former swing keel. The cabin sole on my '82 swinger looks like this:

Perhaps in the conversion to the wing keel, the cabin sole was removed and/or modified to allow for the installation.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2010 : 10:28:52

Tom, you have the traditional interior, where Josh has the dinette interior. Josh, the hump you have under the dinette seat was covered with a decorative wood box in the traditional interior that Tom and I have. Where we have the long access board behind the keel trunk box, your pictures show that you have a wider access board in the floor between the dinette seats. What it looks like you may not have is the second access board in the floor beside the keel trunk. That space may be accessible from the starboard cabin seat hatch. On my boat, that's where the fresh water tank is.
When my keel trunk was cracked, water collected in the bilge where both of the access boards are in Tom's picture. The narrow hump for the swing keel separates those two areas completely in my boat. I had to pump and sponge them out separately. Another area completely separate will be under the V-berth forward, Water can collect there from leaks in the bow area, such as the anchor locker drain becoming clogged up or leaks around the bow eye loop.
You might want to test the bilge pump by pouring a gallon or two of fresh water into the battery compartment where the hose ends, then see if you can pump it out. My bilge pump hose runs under the galley and cabin floor on the port side of the keel hump.
BTW, that's a very nice cover you have for her.

Edited by - dmpilc on 12/07/2010 10:55:46

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2010 : 11:11:56

Some retro-fits were done at the factory, yours appears to be one of those. Your boat is one of a very few! You have heard from a lot of great people on this thread. I see you are a Mac user, good for you, that counts for an extra 20 IQ points. I have a lot of 25 photos on my Mobile Me Gallery, some for an '82, some for an '89 and then lots of photos of C 25s sailing which you might like as a new owner. If there is anything I can explain to you from my photos feel free to ask. Welcome to the forum.

http://gallery.mac.com/fhopper#gallery

Edited by - pastmember on 12/07/2010 11:12:47

moserd
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2010 : 11:27:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Davy J
 When I purchased my boat it had the original 1987 Mercury Sailmaster two-stroke outboard. Which worked fine for a few years, but when the lower unit went bad, I decided on a new motor. I purchased a Tohatsu 9.8 four-stroke XL shaft. The motor has been fine with the exception of having to clean the carb a few times.

However, I now wish I had spent the extra money on a Mercury. They are the same motor, with one exception, the Mercury has the controls built into the tiller handle. Forward/reverse/throttle, all in your hand. At first I didn't think it would be a big deal, but if you travel to different marinas and locations, the extra control on the Mercury is worth the money in the long run. Just my .02
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I have the Mercury engine with the controls in the throttle; I absolutely HATE IT. It is hard to twist; not necessarily intuitive on which way to twist it which will result in a Newby going the wrong direction at least once (right hand rule works though for you engineer types). I have finally got used to the control but wish I had a simple gear shift and separate throttle.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2010 : 11:53:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I have finally got used to the control but wish I had a simple gear shift and separate throttle.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I didn't have any difficulty with the twist on my Mercury. Maybe there is an adjustment to the cables within the motor, I am not sure.

The problem I have with the new Tohatsu is that if you are in an unfamiliar marina, and want to put the boat in reverse, you must take your eyes of the subject, turn around so that you can see the gear shift, change gear, back-up, then do it again to go forward. With my Mercury I could put the boat in forward or reverse without having to look at the gear shift.

I will agree that, at first, determining which direction to twist the throttle was confusing.

Pulling into my home dock with the Tohatsu is easy because it's routine. But when traveling, it was nice not to have to take my eyes off the situation.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2010 : 13:59:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by moserd
 I have the Mercury engine with the controls in the throttle; I absolutely HATE IT. It is hard to twist;<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There should be a friction adjustment knob for the throttle on the tiller. Mine can be adjusted from loose, where it almost returns to idle when I let go, to locking it down. You might want to ensure the throttle linkages/cables under the cowl are adequately lubricated and clean as well.

Edited by - on

JoshMcCullock
1st Mate

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USA
68 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2010 : 22:24:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 Some retro-fits were done at the factory, yours appears to be one of those. Your boat is one of a very few! You have heard from a lot of great people on this thread. I see you are a Mac user, good for you, that counts for an extra 20 IQ points. I have a lot of 25 photos on my Mobile Me Gallery, some for an '82, some for an '89 and then lots of photos of C 25s sailing which you might like as a new owner. If there is anything I can explain to you from my photos feel free to ask. Welcome to the forum.

http://gallery.mac.com/fhopper#gallery

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks Frank, I've learned alot so far. I figured I should speak up and participate if I'm going to glean all this knowledge! Great photos in your gallery. I can't imagine a guy taking care of 2 boats at once. One is enough for me!

Edited by - on

jrchase11
1st Mate

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35 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2011 : 18:08:12

Regarding the engine selection part of this thread...

I have an older 9.9hp yamaha from PO that he said was too heavy and a new 6hp tohatsu. both are 25" long. both have alternators. Granted the 6 hp somewhat less output (60W I believe) than the 9.9hp (80W??).

I have spent a fair amount of time reading through all the motor (engine) posts and few key points are not really discussed regarding hp selection.

<ul><li>Shouldn't we all have high thrust impellers given that even with lower pitch you can still achieve hull speed - just a point that with all of the discussions regarding charging, hull speed, etc. prop selection should be part of it. Of course, I think the high thrust impeller is pretty common on the longer shaft motors </li><li>For power producing it doesn't help you to have a larger motor unless you run it at sufficient rpm to max out the alternator output. With it being very doubtful that 10hp is required to push the boat to hull speed, it is doubtfull anyone is getting efficient charging - in other words if you ride around at 30% throttle on a 9.9 you aren't producing anymore power than at 60% or 70% on a 6hp, in fact you are probably producing less given that most alternators operate at rated ouput at Wide Open and fall off sharply with decreasing rpm's. Again the prop selection enters this discussion as well. This fact leads me to believe you would choose the smallest pitch that would still give you hull speed. </li><li>If hull can only be propelled to hull speed, having a bigger motor in waters with high currents or rough seas doesn't help - you can only propel the boat to hull speed over the water and if current is equal to that, you aren't making headway - Am I missing something here? are there some other losses where having a bigger motor would help?? </li></ul>

With all of that said and considered, I am trying to decide between my two engines. My boat probably achieves hull speed at half throttle with the 6hp (has standard prop which is 7.7" dia. x 8" pitch). the advantages of the 6hp are that it is light and probably burns far less fuel than the 9.9, its newer,and most important of all its installed!!! Yet I definitely don't want to find myself underpowered. Lastly, I don't need two motors so as soon as I can make a decision, I want to sell whichever one I don't need.

Any thoughts, pointers, rebuttals welcome.

P.S. - Also, if I go with the 9.9 I definitely need the new three or four spring mount as my "former" two spring mount (corrosion/age has converted it to a single spring mount) won't be adequate for the 9.9.

Thanks.

Edited by - jrchase11 on 01/02/2011 18:14:18

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2011 : 20:09:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jrchase11
 /Shouldn't we all have high thrust impellers given that even with lower pitch you can still achieve hull speed - just a point that with all of the discussions regarding charging, hull speed, etc. prop selection should be part of it. Of course, I think the high thrust impeller is pretty common on the longer shaft motors<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">High-thrust propellers (the "impeller" is what pumps water through the cooling system) are intended for boats that cannot reach planing speed---Catalinas being among them. Starting and stopping power is markedly improved. Some have found, however, that fuel consumption is increased due to the higher RPMs at cruising speed. Take your pick...<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">For power producing it doesn't help you to have a larger motor unless you run it at sufficient rpm to max out the alternator output. With it being very doubtful that 10hp is required to push the boat to hull speed, it is doubtfull anyone is getting efficient charging - in other words if you ride around at 30% throttle on a 9.9 you aren't producing anymore power than at 60% or 70% on a 6hp, in fact you are probably producing less given that most alternators operate at rated ouput at Wide Open and fall off sharply with decreasing rpm's. Again the prop selection enters this discussion as well. This fact leads me to believe you would choose the smallest pitch that would still give you hull speed. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I believe my Honda produced max alternator output (about 12 amps) at 3000 rpms, and the regulator limited it past that point. As you speculated, a high-thrust prop will let the engine run at higher rpms and thereby produce a little more alternator output at lower speeds.<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If hull can only be propelled to hull speed, having a bigger motor in waters with high currents or rough seas doesn't help - you can only propel the boat to hull speed over the water and if current is equal to that, you aren't making headway - Am I missing something here? are there some other losses where having a bigger motor would help?? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You are right about hull speed being independent of current, but there are two other factors--wind and waves. The extremes of both can impede the boat's ability to reach hull speed (or any given speed), and engine power will help overcome that. All that said, my Honda 8 XLS would drive the boat through practically anything, and push her to hull speed at maybe just over half throttle. But in a big seaway against 30+ winds, I was glad I had more than 6hp. More important on this kind of boat is shaft length--don't get anything less than 25" (extra-long), which is the listed "recommended transom height", not the actual length.

It seems the consensus here in recent years is that the Tohatsu/Nissan 9.8 4-stroke is ideal for the C-25, due to relatively low weight (compared to Honda and Yamaha), plenty of power, the availability of electric start and a decent alternator (the Honda alternator is considerably stronger), and a relatively low price, particularly through this association. Small lake sailors might opt for a 6hp, but those of us on "big water" generally appreciate the reserve power and other features of the bigger engines. Anyone who cruises big water will admit (sometimes only under duress) that they motor 2/3 of the time (or more) to get to where they're going--either because the wind is too light, too heavy, or on the nose. Serious sailors say there's no such thing as too heavy--that you're better off under sail in those conditions... That doesn't work for everyone. The last half of our "delivery cruise" was in 30+ knots on the nose, in a boat that was new to us. The "iron genny" earned it's keep!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/02/2011 20:15:44

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