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Lake Michigan crossing 250 WK ? anyone?

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Chip and Lori
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/03/2011 : 11:50:02

Greetings
We are new to this group. We presently have a Hunter 23.5 water ballast keel and to be honest are not terribly happy with the boat. (way too tender)At the time we bought her we were restricted by the vehicle we owned. Our absolute restriction is 25 feet max allowable length on our lake. As I consider a new boat (used) I am drawn to he 250 WK. I dont think I want to try another water ballast keel as I feel that is the reason for my boat being as tender as she is.
We want to sail in blue water as well with our next boat. By this I mean Lake Michigan launch in WI and sail over to the Michigan side or at least launch in Michigan and sail up and down the coastline.
SO MY QUESTION IS: IS THE 250WK UP TO THIS? Lets assume we get in to trouble out there and get hit with 25 to 35 MPH winds I suppose flying a storm jib and waiting out the squall is the thing to do (I got caught in a gale in the mediteranean and that is what we did. rough night!)

Does anyone out there have any experience on the great lakes with this boat?

Can anyone provide advise on the point of the comparing the 2 boats Hunter 23.5 WB to the 250 WK.

Thanks
Chip and Lori

Chip

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 01/03/2011 : 14:07:21

Welcome to the forum, Chip and Lori!

I haven't owned either boat, but have sailed C250s and 26' Hunters, and can at least get the discussion started. The expert on C250s is Arlyn Stewart, who has sailed them on fairly long passages and in fairly heavy weather. Perhaps he'll join the discussion. As I recall, I think Arlyn's C250 was water ballasted.

The C250 is the successor to the C25. Most C25 sailors would say the C250 is tender, but I don't think that's accurate. The tendency of people who have sailed older designs, like the C25, is to carry big sails. A good C25 sailor can fly a 150 genoa in nearly 20 kts of wind. The C250 isn't designed to carry that much sail area. It will heel excessively and round up. The C250 likes to sail upright, and sails well in big winds, as long as you reduce sail area appropriately, to keep it on its feet. In short, the C250 is sensitive to being overpowered.

I have had the helm of a Hunter 26 a little, and it struck me as being tender. I didn't sail it enough to decide whether it is inherently tender, or whether it is like the C250, insofar as it can sail well if the sail area is reduced.

25-35 kt winds aren't all that big, although they can make for a rough ride. I wouldn't own a boat that couldn't withstand them. If I planned to cross a big body of water in a small boat and the wind rose to 25-35, I'd continue sailing toward my destination with reduced sail area as long as I could, and, when it got too rough, I'd bear off downwind, douse all sails, and run downwind under bare poles, aided by the outboard engine running somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 speed, to keep the boat moving through the troughs. A long shaft outboard engine shouldn't cavitate very often when running downwind, and the boat's motion will become much gentler when running downwind. I saw an old Cal 25 survive 55 kt winds on the Chesapeake Bay using that technique. Even small, light sailboats can survive heavy weather if you're willing to toss out your original plan to sail to your destination, and adopt a new plan that might take you out of your way, but will keep the boat on its feet and afloat. It's always best to keep the boat moving, but a small cruising sailboat should be able to survive 25-35 kts battened down and lying ahull.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 01/03/2011 14:22:59

Chip and Lori
Deckhand

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USA
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Response Posted - 01/03/2011 : 14:44:36

Thanks for the reply Steve. I hope Arlyn does join the string here.

Arlyn.....What do you think of the 250 WK vs the 250 WB? (or anyone please)
Our Hunter 23.5 just seems too tender to me and I am assuminng it has to do with the fact it is a WB keel. I also like the extra head room in the 250 WK. Our boat sits in the slip on our lake 1/2 the year.We sail 3 or 4 times a week.

If I felt more confident in the boat we would trailer her to Muskegon MI and camp/sail up and down the coastline.
We have chartered a pilot house 28 up in the San Juans and she was like a rock compared to our boat. I sail on my friends cat 27 (yr 1998) and it also does well in 15 to 20 kt breezes
Thanks
Happy New Year

Edited by - on

Dave Brown
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Response Posted - 01/03/2011 : 14:48:20

Chip,
I owned a Hunter 23.5 for 11 years, pulled it with a Small GMC van. ( V6 ).
But like Most, I never pulled it far. It was 29 miles To the lake, Once in the spring, and once home in the fall. I picked up a Catalina 250, Tall rig, in 2009.
No I did not pull it home with my Van, I had a friend with a F 250 pull it back to Nebr. But Now that it's home I do pull it around with my GMC. Now all knows that the Van is not rated for this weight, But I'm not pulling it at more than 35 mph.

As far as sailing, the Catalina sails better than the hunter, far better.
The wife just loves the standing head room, and the unclosed head. To me the boat feels twice as large inside, and the stern rail seats are the place to be.

But no matter what any one tells you, It's not a 35 mph wind boat. The boat handles well with a reefed Main, in 20mph, But much more, and your in trouble. If your looking for an ocean boat, then buy one. But, if your looking for a well handling, Comfortable, Close to shore, with an eye on the weather boat, then do as I have, Buy a Catalina 250 WK, and enjoy the summer. But when the wind hits 20mph, go home.

Now I'v never sailed on the Great Lakes, but if you look at my Bio, I have sailed a little, Now with that being said, buy the equipment needed for the game you wish to play.

That's my 2cents worth,

Dave B.

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Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/03/2011 : 16:15:22

I'll tend to side with Dave Brown on this one. Straight across L. Mich. is about 80-90 miles as I recall (lived in IL and MI), which is 16-18 hours if you average 5 kt.s and can make it on one tack. (On a nice night, that probably requires the "iron genny.") A good weather window can make that a nice overnight ride (watch for the ore boats!), but if you need to get home on some schedule, you might have a problem.

A 25' Catalina (or similar competitor) is a "coastal cruiser", meaning it's meant to find shelter when things get nasty on a Great Lake or an ocean. I believe Arlyn Stewart has crossed L. Huron in his 250-WB, so you might get a different perspective from him... But the term "blue water cruiser" applies to boats that are designed and built to stand up to whatever happens when there's no place to hide--such as a thousand miles out in the Pacific. I know from experience L. Mich. can rival any ocean for nastiness (with shorter wave periods), and a storm could roll across when you're 6-8 hours from either shore.

Regarding tenderness, "Everything's relative" and "There's no accounting for taste"... The 250WK is undoubtedly stiffer than the 250WB, but it's more of a load to tow--taller, heavier, and trickier to launch and retrieve. They stopped making the C-250 tall rig early in the run, presumably acknowledging that the boat wasn't suitable for carrying as much sail as its stiffer predecessor, the C-25 (any keel), which is even more of a load. Every boat's a compromise.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/03/2011 16:20:48

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 01/03/2011 : 17:04:58

I didn’t talk about your proposal to cross Lake Michigan.

Many 23-26' sailboats cross the Gulf Stream from Florida to the Bahamas and back every year. The key is to wait in Miami until you have a weather window, assuring fair weather for about 3 days, and, when the weather is right, make the crossing as quickly as possible, carrying enough fuel to motor all the way, if necessary, in case the wind is light.

Small sailboats that are designed primarily for inland lake sailing are a poor choice to make a long, blue water passage, but, if you have a fair weather window, and are traveling a distance that can be covered within that weather window, it's not only do-able, but it's done often.

As I recall, the crossing from Miami to the Bahamas is, at it's narrowest point, about 70 miles, and can ordinarily be crossed in much less than 24 hours. Lake Michigan is about 118 miles wide, at its widest point. I don't know it's narrowest width, but believe it's farther than the distance from Miami to the Bahamas. Only on a very extraordinary day could you hope to cover 118 miles in 24 hours of non-stop sailing. That means you'd be stretching your weather window into 2 days, and the longer the weather window, the less reliable it becomes.

Sailing to the Bahamas is reasonable in a small sailboat. With a little luck, crossing Lake Michigan can certainly be done, but I don’t think it would be good judgment to do so. The amount of time required to sail the distance, and the amount of fuel required, would stretch your weather window too far. If the weather turned against you, maybe the boat would be able to cope with it, but maybe it wouldn’t.

About 30+ years ago, I cruised the eastern side of Lake Michigan in my Catalina 22. We sailed from one inlet to the next, and only had to cover a distance of 20-25 miles each day. That means we only needed a safe weather window a few hours long, at the end of which we would find shelter for the night. If you want to cruise Lake Michigan, that’s the way I would suggest you do it.

When I said any small boat ought to be able to survive 25-35 kt winds and much more, I didn't mean to suggest that it would be a good idea to go there intentionally. The boat should be able to cope, but it won't be fun anymore. It'll be hard, unpleasant work, and terrifying.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 01/03/2011 : 20:00:25

Hopefully Arlyn will chime in as he has done long trips on the Great Lakes. Check out his [url="http://pages.suddenlink.net/arlyn/sailing/sailing.html"]web site[/url].

As far as the differences in C250's go - the WB is much easier to trailer. The WK has 9" more headroom and beefier equipment (winches, etc). Both are fine boats. We have had a WK for 4 years and love it.

Edited by - on

Dave Brown
Navigator

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Response Posted - 01/03/2011 : 21:55:00

Chip,
Did all your " Q " get answered?
Some times we get off the subject.
????
Dave B.

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Edited by - on

Chip and Lori
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2011 : 23:27:36

Thanks Dave I am getting a better feel for things. Dont want to make the same mistake I did on the hunter 23.5 but it has been a good boat.
I need to better understand the pros and cons to the WK vs the WB in terms of headroom and aft berth room. and ease of launch and retrieval.
I think we need to sail on the WB in wind and compare to our Hunter. Also to get on board both vessels to experience the room on board.
We will look for someone close to home here we can contact and perhaps take a look at their boats.
Thanks much for the help to all.
Chip wiht Lori

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/04/2011 : 07:10:10

A search of our registered "Owners" (upper-left side of this page) turns up a WB ("centerboard") C-250 owned by Jack & Joan Schafer, Lake Geneva, WI, and a wing keel owned by Michael Patterson, Springfield, IL. There are undoubtedly others who aren't in our list, including at least one WK in Ohio that's for sale.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/04/2011 07:11:01

John Russell
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Response Posted - 01/04/2011 : 08:52:21

Chip,

I have a 250 wing keel on Lake Erie. I'm not nearly as experienced as the others that have posted here. Having said that, I'd sail my 250 across Lake Erie to the Canadian side only with an ideal weather window and I would likely island hop which is easily done in the western basin of the lake. I just don't think it's enough boat to risk getting caught 25 miles out in a sudden summer storm. It would survive but, I'm not as sure about the captain. It would be a very rough ride. My boat is not a "blue water" boat by any stretch of the imagination.

If you're looking for a "trailer sailor", the C250 wing keel is NOT your boat. Sure, it can be launched from your trailer but even a very experienced rigger will need an hour or so to rig before launch and de-rig after retrieval. That doesnt't address the depth and length of launch ramp required. The water ballasted version should be easier to launch since it will float in shallower water with the ballast tanks empty. The tanks can be pumped out prior to retrieval to aid in floating the boat.

I read somewhere, and I think it was on this forum, that the water ballast actually may be more stable than the keel version since the ballast is distributed over a larger area. Again, this might be a question for Arlyn.

Maybe Paul (Britinusa) might join in given his experience crossing the Gulf Stream in his water ballast. Read this: [url="http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=18076&SearchTerms=Gulf+Stream"]Bimini Crossing[/url]

Edited by - on

Chip and Lori
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 01/04/2011 : 10:48:50

John
Thank you for the info and the link. Great story. In my youth (younger youth lets say) I bummed a ride on a 38ft ketch, sailing from Crete to Alexandria Eqypt. We hit force 8 gale the first night out and wound up flying 2 storm jibs just to keep way on and stay running with the seas. All on board got deathly ill other than the captain and myself. We had our hands full. In that boat I never felt like we were in danger even in 14 ft seas. I am attempting to contrast or compare that experience to what the seaworthness is of the Cat250. Alot of good info here indeed and most valuable is that this is not a "blue water" boat and that the water ballast may be a good choice after all.
One interesting thing you said............The tanks can be pumped out prior to retreval...Does that mean that aside from the keel itself there are other tanks in the bilge that hold water? My Hunter 23.5 does not do that. It just holds the water in the keel and it has only a release valve so you pull the trailer out some and let it drain and then pull it out the rest of the way.
Dave B
Thanks for the heads up on local boats with both kinds of keels.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 01/04/2011 : 11:03:21

The 250 water ballast does not have a keel. It has a relatively lightweight centerboard to counteract leeway. It does not serve any real "ballast" purpose. The water tanks are built into the hull of the boat. They are distinct from the bilge.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/04/2011 : 11:27:03

Chip--I'm unclear about your H-23.5 configuration... My recollection of that boat is that it has a centerboard (unballasted) and a water ballast tank inside the hull--just what the C-250 WB has. Some folks "blow" the ballast tank in the C-250 before retrieval by hooking an air pump to the vent hose. When they see bubbles beside the hull, they close the drain valve--the tank is essentially empty. You can drain it on the trailer, but then you're pulling more weight out, and the boat will sit a little lower going on the trailer.

Getting back to "blue water boats", they have some particular characteristics, strengths, and versatility features that make them much safer at sea... but it's often said that the various 25' Catalinas can take more than their skippers and crews can (or wish to). There's some truth to that (for most of us). It gets down to what it takes to, as Steve Milby says, "terrify" you. 8' capping seas on Lake Michigan in a 25' sailboat, totally out of sight of land in any direction, would be something I'd seriously wished I hadn't gotten myself into. My wife and I came close to that feeling in our first cruise on our C-25, but we were able to duck into a nearby harbor and stay for the night. That's "coastal cruising", and that saved her feeling for the new-to-us boat.

Edited by - on

Chip and Lori
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2011 : 14:44:16

John and Dave
How extremely enlightening. The gent I bought my boat from explained the ballast system as I just did. I have gone through the manual and there is no good explaination of how it works but what you say makes sense. I always wondered why the centerboard was so easy to swing up if it were full of water.
There are many reasons to consider either design of the 250 and I just need to see them first hand. We are looking in to that through the Sailing Club here and there are 2 boats listed in our area for sale as well.
Thanks for the info

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/04/2011 : 16:23:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Chip and Lori
 ...The gent I bought my boat from explained the ballast system as I just did. I have gone through the manual and there is no good explaination of how it works but what you say makes sense. I always wondered why the centerboard was so easy to swing up if it were full of water.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">A centerboard full of water wouldn't be too hard to lift if it's in the water... but it'd have to be a pretty big, fat centerboard to hold enough water.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/04/2011 19:35:40

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 01/05/2011 : 16:47:19

Hi Chip and Lori

I haven't been checking in here real often of late but note your information request. As usual, you've been given some very good insights and I'll try to expand on and confirm some.

My history cruising Northern Lake Huron on my C25 w/b is accounted for in several stories about those cruises over seven years. If you desire and need links to them, I'd be glad to pass them to you.

Either model of the C250 will fill your needs. The general rule of thumb is that if the boat stays the sailing season in the water, then go wing keel. If it lives on the trailer, go water ballast.

One plus of the water ballast on the Great Lakes is that it has the character of a full keel boat in that it is not given to hobby horsing as center keeled boat does in a seaway. Because of that, I and crew were able to do many day passages in conditions where skippers of larger center keeled boats chose to hole up rather than get beaten up. I've sailed a Catalina 30 fin (shoal keel) a fair amount on the Great Lakes and it hobby horsed a good bit but the 250 w/b just doesn't do it, I guess because the ballast is spread a good bit of the length of the boat. And... a boat that doesn't hobby horse in a sea way... stays dryer. Even in some nasty conditions, we never suffered much spray.

I've a short video clip of one crossing where we had enough swell to cause some hobby horsing in many boats but it can be seen that the 250 w/b doesn't much suffer it. But... that virtue is a trade off for less headroom and greater maintenance and care of a center board boat. The last issue I'll mention is skinny water. If you really need a skinny water boat, the w/b is slightly better in that regard.

In regards to the cruising amenities of the 250, all of my cruising was with one crew with the exception of one cruise with three adults, which was no problem but I'd carefully point out that each kept their gear stowed properly.

A huge plus for the 250 for cruising is the swim ladder on the open transom. Full transom boats have boarding ladders that are mostly difficult to climb back in the boat with while open transom boats have swim ladders that are easy to climb. The cruiser who anchors in remote areas will enjoy the swim ladder immensely... though he/she may not enjoy getting refreshed in Great Lakes water temperatures.

Last, I heard Frank Butler make a claim once that it was his goal to provide the most boat for a dollar. While that can be interpreted several way, my belief is that in the C250 wb, I got exactly the boat that fit my needs, which were to trailer a good distance yearly to the Great Lakes and cruise with one crew for up to three weeks in relative comfort and safety in a wide variety of conditions including some that were very close to nasty.

For more particular questions... fire away.

Edited by - on

ruachwrights
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Response Posted - 01/06/2011 : 08:18:39

One interesting rule of thumb I learned while sailing Buzzards Bay on Cape Cod with a Cat. 350 was never venture out in wind speeds that exceed hull length. Now buzzards can kick up mighty chop as fast current counters high winds. Even a class a boat like the 350 could get overwealmed.

Ours have a class c rating. But after sailing my 250 WK tall rig for a couple of years on Narraganset Bay and venturing out to the Atlantic (never more than 10 miles out) that this rule of thumb would definitely apply. This said, the WK can take allot- more than I can probably handle- and I have been in some very dangerous conditions and made it through. Do have your main modified to handle a second reef. Do make sure your iron Jenny is in good working order. Do keep a keen eye on your weather window, and last but not least, make sure you have good working experience with th 250 before you plan a long trip.

One more thing: I am probably a bit biased by hearing tales of water ballasted (probably inferior to the cat 250 WB) boats turtle and sink in squalls on Canyon Ferry lake in Montana, but there is something to be said for having weight further down.

Vern Wright out of East Greenwich RI

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 01/06/2011 : 19:47:57

Some guys I had lunch with today brought up another issue regarding W/B boats, namely blistering. Our marina manager's opinion was that if you plan to leave the boat in the water for a month or more at a time, do not buy a w/b boat. They were designed to be trailer sailors. Blistering could occur from the inside as well as from the outside and the repairs would be much more difficult to fix.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/06/2011 : 20:02:31

There might be something to that... First, fresh water permeates fiberglass laminations more readily then salt water, and both do it more readily if there isn't something like a vinylester gelcoat or epoxy barrier coat on the surface of the polyester resin that binds the fiberglass laminations. The water molecules then work their way along the glass fibers by osmosis, and if the moisture freezes, it expands--starting the process of delamination. If the ends of any glass fibers are exposed, that process accelerates.

HOWEVER... the same issue could be raised for any traditionally ballasted sailboat that regularly has any amount of rainwater in the bilge... and many do... and most are still structurally sound... so.........

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 01/06/2011 : 20:20:30

The OP is considering a C250. My understanding is that Catalina was using vinyl ester gelcoat exclusively by the time these boats were made. So blistering on the outside is much less likely for both WB and WK versions. I do not know enough to comment on the interior of the hull or WB tanks.

Edited by - on

Chip and Lori
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Response Posted - 01/06/2011 : 22:28:37

Wow.....................Tremendous amount of great info here. Thanks to all for sharing and taking the time.
Arlyn
I have spent some time on your web site and have been enjoying it alot

My situation is unique. My boat spends 7 months in the slip behind the house and the rest of the time on a trailer. I intend to trailer the boat to destinations that provide a place to sail to, such as Lake Barclay KY, Areas around FL where the water is protected such as Pensacola bay, Table Rock Lake in MO. And in the summer time the great lakes.
Does anyone have any suggestions for a place to trailer to arond this time of year? We are in St Louis.

So my plan is to find a 250 WB for rent somewhere on the Great Lakes and just try it out. As mentioned I am spooked by my own WB Hunter 23.5 as she feels like it could be knocked down in a gust. It really sounds like the 250WB is a much more stable boat. And by viewing the video clip of the 90 mile crossing in pretty sizable seas it sure looks stable.
If anyone is around St Louis it would be nice to make contact.
Cheers and thanks
Chip C

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 01/07/2011 : 22:02:43

Just reading until the Pensacola line; I don't have a 250, but I winter in Pensacola Beach. The sailing is great - good breezes, bright sun, and usually in the sixties, but sometimes low seventies and occasionally high fifties - and dock is space widely available in the winter at around $250-300 a month. The sun is high enough that high sixties is shorts weather, but since it is on the eastern side of the time zone, the days end early.

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 01/09/2011 : 20:23:49

My suspicion is that osmotic blisters are not much or any issue with the ballast tank. They form when water traps between the gel coat and fiberglass threads or matting and freezes or pumps with temperature changes. The only blisters I've noted on my boat are on the inside of one of the cockpit lockers that flooded and probably held water during a freeze.

The oil field industry changed to fiberglass tanks for all of its smaller gathering tanks many years ago and they seem very durable in comparison to steel tanks.

Edited by - on

Navy1
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Response Posted - 01/13/2011 : 21:24:05

Hi Chip & Lori, I have only been sailing 5 years and I am 73 years old, so not real nimble anymore. I have a 2004 C250WB and have gained a lot of confidence in her. Last two years I have sailed her on lake Superior in the Apostle Island area. This last summer I sailed her there in some pretty rough weather, and had her rails in the water more than once. It gave me a lot more confidence in the boat than I previously had. I might mention I had a new 150 genoa I was sailing her with. I wouldn't recommend that kind of sailing to a new sailor, but with my limited experience the boat removed my fear of overpowering. With a 20 - 25 mph wind I learned how to push her to the limit and still keep things well under control. I put in several days of heavy sailing, and I was tired, but the boat did great. I have learned one thing, my boat is meant for sailing and the small disadvantage of lower headroom is a secondary issue. Unless I was going to keep her in the same slip all the time, if I had to do it over again, I would still opt for the water ballast. It's a very good boat all the way around. I just hope I've got a few more years of sailing left in me. Cheers - Roger

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 01/15/2011 : 03:29:01

Hey Roger, I hope you have many more.

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.