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Another new sail question?

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Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/18/2011 : 13:57:36

First question, is there any way to determine the age of your sails? When I purchased my boat in 2004 it seemed that every item on the boat was “out of the box stock”.

After reading some of the threads on different sail makers/lofts and sail cloth, I have started thinking about replacing my (I think) original 1987 mainsail. There is nothing visually wrong with the sail, but I would assume that after 20+ years of service, that it would be time.

I’ve searched thru some of the past topics on mainsails. Gary Swenson at Ullman-Ventura comes up frequently. My question is; is there a difference between the Ventura loft and the other Ullman lofts?

I am located in-between two of their Florida lofts, Ullman Florida in Sarasota and Masthead Ent. In St. Petersburg. It would seem to me, that constructing a sail for a C25 would be akin to baking a cake. Follow the recipe and there it is, am I wrong? I hope that this is not a can of worms!

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2011 : 14:26:20

You are probably better off with the Ventura office since most that have purchAsed sails from Ulman on this Forum have had good experiences thru them , so that is a good reference. But just for comparison info and sure to be more expensive, I would also check with Mack Sails since they come from your area - Florida. They have a lot of info on sailcloth, etc on their website.
http://www.macksails.com/sailclth.htm

In regards to if the sails you have are still functional ....well, for some, if they are not worn out, then many continue to use them. But functionally, you notice they are not performing well mainly when close tacking to the wind and part of the sail Luffs to a degree not allowing you to really tack as close to the wind as you would like. That's when you know the sail is blown out - Stretched in the middle of the sail.
Apologize for any typos - Heading home ... Stopped on the way. It's cold outside...and typing on a Blackberry with those small buttons and micro-size print.

Edited by - OLarryR on 01/18/2011 15:52:44

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2011 : 14:28:44

From what I've read by others, Gary is one of the most knowledgeable sail reps regarding the Catalina 25 boat. Perhaps you could go get your Ullman Sarasota guy to talk to Gary to get what you really would like to have from Gary, i.e. your local guy do the measuring, ask the questions, etc. without much upcharge. Do those guys (the Ullman reps) build their sails locally, or do both get them from the same plant?
Another question is how much longer do you plan to keep the C25? If it is only a couple of years, I wouldn't be too concerned about Gary vs. the local loft. Buy from the one you feel most comfortable dealing with.
I don't know anything about Masthead except that they have been trying to sell C22 sails on ebay.

Edited by - on

TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2011 : 14:41:13

Dave, I've been in Masthead, I don't remember them being a true "loft" (by that I mean sails made on site) but it's been a coupe of years so I might be wrong. Masthead is a Catalina dealer, so you probably can't go too wrong.

I just had a new main made by a local guy, since it's the slow time of the year he gave me a good deal. Could not be happier with his work and the sail. He added a few extras at no additional costs, I think I paid a little less than DavyR paid for his sail from UK Hasley.

I use to do marine canvas in Pinellas County about 20 years ago and remember there were a couple actual lofts in town, I would look around and find a local guy.

And you're right...you probably just opened another sailmaker discussion can of worms.

Did you get out this past weekend?
tc

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2011 : 16:04:57

I wouldn't consider a discussion on sails opening a can of worms. This is all good stuff to discuss. Anyway, for most of us this is a slow time of year for sailing and might as well talk about something we all have interest in. Quite frankly, the danger of getting into the sailcoth thing is as some have mentioned, it is going to cost considerable more and for many that are not racing and even some that do race, just going with what someone here recommends, is probably good advice. Just like to point out that if you do go with a reasonably priced sail, it is still a good idea to find out all you can as to exactly what you are buying from each sailmaker that is offering similar priced sails. Who knows, you may find out that one is offering a better sailcoth matl for the same cost as your other quote. that is the real reason to check out how to compare what one offers vs another. Not to convince anyone to go with a sail that cost...~ $400 or more vs another. (not that there is anything wrong with that if it is superior sailcoth matl. LOL)

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2011 : 16:13:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Did you get out this past weekend? tc<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
No, the only day I had available was Sunday, great temps and sun, but we had little to no wind on the west coast.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I would look around and find a local guy. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I still may. I have Atlantic Sail Traders close by and National Sails in Ocala. There is also JSI in St Pete.

But, a lot of people on this forum have purchased from Ullman in Ventura and have had very good things to say. I was just wondering why no one mentioned any of the other Ullman lofts around the country?

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2011 : 16:41:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">it is going to cost considerable more and for many that are not racing and even some that do race, just going with what someone here recommends, is probably good advice.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not a racer, but, two boats on the same tack and..... oh nevermind.

I'm fairly sure that I want a loose footed main with full or 2x2 battens ,and while I have not dug really deep into this yet, it does not seem that this is an off the shelf item.

I would like the sail material to last, the original is 20+ years old. As far as price goes I would like to get value for my money but am not concerned about saving the last penny. I would prefer to by happy with the purchase.

Edited by - on

TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2011 : 19:03:09

Davy...you could make the 2+ hours across the state and check out my local loft

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2011 : 21:59:03

Well, it's kind of true. You do not race but if there is another sailboat out, then you are racing. Actually, blown out sails are very noticeable to the sailboat owner but probably no one else onboard. But what really bothered me was one time when I was sort of shadowing the sailboaters in the weekly race in our area and I just could not maintain their tack.I was falling off to leeward. Granted I have a wing keel but the sail was not filling properly and I could not head upwind to my satisfaction. I knew right then that my sails really were deficient. They also were the originals and studying the sails when close tacked, you could definitely see where they were blown out, mainly stretched in the center area.

Regarding 2x 2 battens, I recall when I discussed with Quantum going with full battens as many had recommended to me, Quantum indicated they could furnish it that way but recommended I only have the top batten full. I went with their suggestion. As it turned out, the other battens seem to be longer than the battens in my original sail (sort of 2/3 full) and the way the battens are held in is sort of an overkill. It is nothing like the original sail in it's construction. I wanted it loose footed and so they designed it that way. I forget what else I had specified but they furnished it as we discussed. I also recall checking a few online sailmakers like FX sails. A number of these online sailmakers are not quite off the shelf supplers and will also design the sail to some degree, if not all your requests. Many require you to fill out their measurement form. Though, others you just tell them what Cat 25 you have (tall/std) and they furnish the sails. I just do not recall the specifics any longer for some of these online sailmakers now that it's been three years since I purchased my sails.

Probably best to discuss with some of those you are considering (ie. Ullman Ventura office and local suppliers) what you basically want and then jot down what they have to say. Then compare to each other. That will then generate more questions and you will go through a second round with each...and so on. (That is what I went through between Doyle and Quantum in Annapolis.) Up to your final decision, you are still gathering facts and zeroing in. You also are getting a better feel for each of the sailmakers and who you feel most comfortable to give your business.

Edited by - OLarryR on 01/18/2011 22:01:38

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2011 : 06:26:13

We took our Genny to Masthead just the other day for repair. Very impressed! Dudeman is currently doing raceweek and had to put our minor repair job on hold. Paul Silvernail, and yes they have a few C250's for sale so HE does know the boat. Not sure whether they loft sails or just sell used ones and do repair, but the facility and the pricing was excellent...

sten - St. Pete

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2011 : 07:53:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Not sure whether they loft sails or just sell used ones and do repair, but the facility and the pricing was excellent...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This is good to know. I need to have the sun cover on my genny be replaced and/or re-stitched.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2011 : 08:44:13

Regarding your original question, there's one simple test you can use to help determine the general condition of your sails. As sails age, their exposure to the sun causes the stitching to deteriorate. You can tell how severely that has happened by hooking your thumbnail under a stitch, and trying to break it. If it breaks easily, the stitching is severely deteriorated. That doesn't mean the sail is no good. It simply means the sail should be re-stitched, which is usually not terribly expensive.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2011 : 09:30:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You can tell how severely that has happened by hooking your thumbnail under a stitch, and trying to break it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The stitching is still in good condition. The original PO lived out of state and mostly used the boat a few months a year. I am making a guess, but I think I have sailed the boat more than him during his 17 years of ownership. I am going to try to take some photos of the sail in-action this weekend to determine if the sail is stretched-out or not.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2011 : 11:08:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Regarding your original question, there's one simple test you can use to help determine the general condition of your sails. As sails age, their exposure to the sun causes the stitching to deteriorate. You can tell how severely that has happened by hooking your thumbnail under a stitch, and trying to break it. If it breaks easily, the stitching is severely deteriorated. That doesn't mean the sail is no good. It simply means the sail should be re-stitched, which is usually not terribly expensive.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When we replaced our main last year, the sail repair loft asked if they could tear our old sail to determine whether the cloth was OK. ugh the cloth was frightenly easy to tear.

sten

Edited by - redviking on 01/19/2011 11:09:20

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2011 : 14:40:20

Davy, do you know who made your headsail? It might be worthwhile to have a matched set.

Considering that you are just across the bay from Masthead in St. Pete, and they are a Catalina dealer, if you buy from them and need service, they will be more accessable.

In any event, you will most likely do well whether your purchase is from Gary Swenson, the more local Ullman guys, Masthead, National Sail (my 135 is from them), or FX. I'll toss out one more, Dave Benjamin at Island Planet Sails, also a good guy to deal with (I've bought from him, too.)

Edited by - dmpilc on 01/19/2011 14:47:46

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2011 : 15:09:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Davy, do you know who made your headsail?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
My 135% Genoa was purchased from and labeled CD which was called Cruising Direct. They now go by the name of North Sails Direct and I think the sails come labeled by North.

They list a "off the shelf" mainsail on their website as being loose footed but not with full battens. I might call them when I determine if I really need to replace the sail.

Edited by - on

Alan Clark
Captain

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406 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2011 : 17:30:28

Don't forget SERVICE.. Sailmaker needs to be responsive and informative..
for the kind of money spent on a good sail to last a long time that is important. We bought our Main from Doyle=Loose Foot, two and Two battens (2 Full and 2 partial). We than bought our 150% Genoa from them and had the cut a 170% to fit our furler. Very Pleased with their responses to questions and time limits.

Edited by - Alan Clark on 01/19/2011 17:33:16

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