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Cockpit floor saturation/wheel helm removal

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trptelf
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USA
113 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/04/2011 : 16:47:59

Addendum: The soaked plywood floor was from leaking scuppers and stanchions. The holes for the wheel helm allowed the water to drain, possibly keeping the plywood flooring from rotting.

Has anyone converted back to tiller from a wheel helm? The previous owner of our boat removed the wheel that was put in by another previous owner. (We have the wheel system if anyone wants to convert to wheel). What's left is a 4 inch hole in the cockpit floor that was covered with a plastic plate screwed in without sealant, two bolt holes, and 4 small screw holes. The holes were not properly sealed/caulked and the plywood in the floor was saturated in places dripping plywood tea to the aft berth. The cushion is missing, so this must have been a problem for a while as the previous owner didn't realize there was even supposed to be a cushion there.

After drying out the hull on the hard in late summer with a fan underneath, we filled the smaller holes with rubber stoppers and covered with sealant. We put an inspection port in the larger hole (with o-ring) and completely sealed it in. I reset and resealed the window on the side of the cockpit floor. Floor and berth appeared dry throughout the fall.

Now when it rains, but especially with melting ice and snow, we are again producers of plywood tea dripping into the aft berth. There are squishy areas in the floor near the inspection port. Much condensation is occurring in this area underneath. Is the condensation soaking in from the exposed plywood in the large hole underneath? Everything appears sealed from above. Or do we have another leak contributing to the floor saturation? I didn't treat the exposed plywood from underneath with epoxy this summer because I wasn't sure if it was completely dried out yet having been sitting for over a year with the previous owner.

Any suggestions of the soaked flooring, and how to repair this situation? I don't have any interest in a wheel.

My apologies for the length of my description.

Bill and Erin
Formerly of Cat25 WK/TR
and Cat25 FK/SR

Edited by - trptelf on 03/12/2011 08:59:00

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2011 : 17:40:17

Erin, wow, quite a project.

You might start here - http://www.westsystem.com/ss/ - very comprehensive range of products (all the way down to matching/repairing non-skid) and instruction manuals + very competent help via the telephone.

Perhaps if you have time you might share some pix of your work.

Edited by - OJ on 02/04/2011 17:43:17

trptelf
Navigator

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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2011 : 17:48:10

So, you are saying replace the cockpit floor... Well, its worth it if it comes to that. Love this boat! I'll post pictures of the hole next time I get down to the boat.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5906 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2011 : 19:34:02

You should replace the cockpit floor.

Get the fiberglass repair manual from West Systems. You make a shallow cut, just through the fiberglass, around the perimeter of the floor, and remove the plywood core. The original floor is cored with plywood, but don't replace it with plywood. There is a man-made coring material that is very easy to work with. When it is saturated with fiberglass, it becomes very strong, and waterproof, and you'll never again have a water problem with the cockpit floor. It's a big job, but now that I have seen it done by a friend, it isn't nearly as bad as I thought it would be.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 02/04/2011 19:42:39

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/05/2011 : 10:04:26

Follow the link that was provided to West Systems. Go the the "Repairing Machined Holes in Fiberglass." For the large hole go to "Zone 3-High-risk repairs requiring additional reinforcing." Look at the last seacock example - moving a seacock. I think you can do less than the 12:1 bevel because your repair is above the waterline. For the smaller holes use the Zone 1 or Zone 2 examples.

If the core is rotted then you'll have a bigger repair job and perhaps a floor replacement. If the core is OK then I'd just repair the holes.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 02/05/2011 10:12:13

trptelf
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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2011 : 12:05:41

Thanks, great info ! If only repairing the holes, and not the complete floor, is it possible to completely dry out the plywood core first without removing the top fiberglass layer? I thought it was completely dry, I thought we sealed the holes sufficiently and there is no sign of leaking from the top/outside of the floor, yet the floor still became squishy after melting snow, ice, etc.

Is it possible the leaking is coming from elsewhere, or is it possible for condensation to be so much as to soak the core from the inside cutout? Do scuppers leak to the floor on an 87 with the new style? I would hate to repair the holes or floor and find there is still water in the plywood.

Thanks for all of your thoughts. Hugely helpful, as always on this site.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 02/05/2011 : 12:23:44

If the floor is squishy that would indicate core rot. The floor should be solid. Rotted core in the cockpit is something that can happen even if the boat never had the wheel steering added so be sure to check for other areas of water intrusion.

The repair really has to do with the extent of the rot. If it is limited in area you can do a repair using penetrating epoxy to treat the area. If it is extensive then replacement of the core is required. Here is a site I have found helpful for this sort of thing:

[url="http://www.rotdoctor.com/"]Rot Doctor[/url]

Click on Fiberglass Boats and then Rot Repair in Glass Boats. Way down on the page it gets into various deck and core repairs.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 02/05/2011 12:26:31

Happy D
Admiral

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Response Posted - 02/08/2011 : 16:04:54

Chances are the floor is not rotted, just delaminated. Cover the cockpit so absolutely no water can get to it. Separate the laminate with screwdrivers and heat the floor from underneath for a few weeks. Once it's dry, pump the epoxy in the laminate and clamp it closed. Use jacks on the underside and bags of concrete on the top side. After that cures, seal the edge of the opening where the original wheel went through. Build a fiberglass ring 1/8" thick and epoxy that to the cockpit sole around the opening. Screw a Beckson plate to it.
http://members.csinet.net/dhapp/cockpit/cockpit.html
http://www.beckson.com/screwout.html

Edited by - on

trptelf
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113 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2011 : 17:34:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Happy D
 Chances are the floor is not rotted, just delaminated. Cover the cockpit so absolutely no water can get to it. Separate the laminate with screwdrivers and heat the floor from underneath for a few weeks. Once it's dry, pump the epoxy in the laminate and clamp it closed. Use jacks on the underside and bags of concrete on the top side. After that cures, seal the edge of the opening where the original wheel went through. Build a fiberglass ring 1/8" thick and epoxy that to the cockpit sole around the opening. Screw a Beckson plate to it.
http://members.csinet.net/dhapp/cockpit/cockpit.html
http://www.beckson.com/screwout.html
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I see you have a Pirateer. Fun boat! Spent a few summers sailing one.

There isn't any delamination on our Cat 25. Had that and repaired it on my Laser. The issue is the water seeping into the floor. I put a Beckson plate over the hole, screwed it in and sealed it (we just used a different brand which is why I called it an inspection port above). But there is still water getting in the plywood. No repair will work unless I figure out where the water is coming from, unless it is indeed coming from the inspection port, but it seems to be sealed tightly on the outside and the inside O ring. The plywood isn't rotted, yet, but will be eventually if I can't fix the problem. I liked the idea of glassing it over, which I hadn't really considered before. But if the water is coming from elsewhere, glassing it over could worsen the problem with no place for water to escape.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/09/2011 : 10:44:36

Oh and one more thing, quit living in sin and marry the girl!

Edited by - on

trptelf
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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2011 : 10:57:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 Oh and one more thing, quit living in sin and marry the girl!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The "girl" is me, I'm the sailor ;) though Bill has learned quickly - and he lovingly finishes all of the boat projects I get started and then get stuck on. And we are married. I kept my name for professional reasons. Sorry for any confusion.

Edited by - on

jadkins
1st Mate

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USA
27 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2011 : 13:30:15

I am interested in the wheel steering. Can you take pictures.
Please email me with price and details.

Jake

Edited by - on

eguevara
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USA
111 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2011 : 16:57:55

I am interested too...

-eddy

Edited by - on

trptelf
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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2011 : 17:39:01

The pedestal, guard, and wheel are made by Merriman, they look to be in great shape, no corrosion, interior chain is clean and wheel moves great. Steering hardware includes 2 rods and what looks like a cable with metal screws on each end that screw into the rods. There is a center mount for a compass and also another mount for possibly a depth finder. HOWEVER, Merriman is out of business and parts are difficult to find. With this info, maybe others can contribute more info on the wheel to the forum. If still interested, email me. I'll have pictures by tomorrow evening.

Edited by - on

trptelf
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Response Posted - 03/08/2011 : 18:01:54

By the way, the original posting was about my soaked cockpit floor which I thought was due to the hole left from the helm removal. From reading other posts, I found that my floor was being soaked mostly by the scuppers and a rear stanchion. I believe now that the hole is actually acting as an outlet for the water, and is probably what has kept the plywood floor from rotting. Scuppers have been sealed around the edges until plastic replacements can be put in, and now if I can just figure out how to reach all of the screws to remove and reseal the stanchions holding the aft rail...

Edited by - on

eguevara
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Response Posted - 03/08/2011 : 20:13:43

what is your email?

-eddy

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trptelf
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Response Posted - 03/08/2011 : 20:20:57

Click on my user name "trptelf" and you can send me a private email that way, and then I'll send you my email address (to avoid spammers pulling emails off of these forums). I tried to contact you this way, but your info isn't set up to accept emails.

Edited by - on

eguevara
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Response Posted - 03/08/2011 : 20:57:11

ahh let me work on that..

-eddy

Edited by - on

ckroll
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 03/09/2011 : 11:14:34

We just wrapped up a project where we completely replaced the cockpit core as our scuppers had been allowing water to seep in over the years and rot the wood core. It was quite squishy so we obtained the WM fiberglass repair manual and it had everything we needed to get the job done. It really wasn't that big of a project but having never worked with glass/epoxy the aesthetics of the finished product probably could have been a little better. All in all we probably spent a total of 6-8 man hours (over the course of a few weekends) with the repair. Now that floor is solid enough to play basket ball on :-). Worth the effort for the comfort of mind.

Edited by - on

trptelf
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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2011 : 06:04:24

Sorry no pictures of the pedestal yet. We had 2 days of rain, and then this morning, on a day I had reserved to go to the boat, we woke up to 2 inches of snow. :( Its supposed to warm up and dry out later today and I can get to storage to take pictures of the pedestal.

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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Response Posted - 03/11/2011 : 06:36:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ckroll
 We just wrapped up a project where we completely replaced the cockpit core as our scuppers had been allowing water to seep in over the years and rot the wood core. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Looks like I have the same problem aboard Confetti...

Do you have any p[ictures of the project while you were doing it?

Also, any suggestions for the type of saw to use to remove the fiberglass cockpit sole? (I was hoping to cut it along the edges of the antiskid area to help hide the repair)

Thanks!

Chuck

Edited by - on

trptelf
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Response Posted - 03/11/2011 : 06:54:13

Is there any way to change the name of this topic? I named it wheel helm removal because at the time I thought that was the cause of my soaked cockpit floor. Is there anyway to change the title to the real problem, which is "leaking scuppers, soaked cockpit floor"?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 03/11/2011 : 07:46:58

Chuck,

My friend recently replaced the balsa cored deck on his Pearson with a man-made core material, and I suggest you use it instead of another sheet of plywood. It is a very porous material that absorbs the resin, and it essentially becomes solid fiberglass. As a result, it will never absorb water again, even if the outer skin cracks. I don't know the name of it, but have asked him by email, and will let you know what it is. The core material comes in different thicknesses, to match the needs of your project. Depending on the construction of the specific area, you might have to use a fiberglass paste to form a dam around the perimeter of the repair, so the resin won't run out of the area when you pour it in.

After replacing the core material, he didn't try to cover it with the old skin. He built up a new skin with layers of fiberglass cloth, as described in the West repair manual. He smoothed it with a grinder and sander, and painted over it with a white paint that had non-skid in it. He painted it with a brush, and it looked like it had been sprayed, very smooth and with no lap or brush marks. Apparently there are some very good products available for the purpose. My friend is a DIYer, not a pro, but he took a little time and care to do a nice job, and it turned out looking great.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/11/2011 07:49:18

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 03/11/2011 : 09:08:51

The man-made core material is called Core-Cell, and you can get it from Jamestown Distributors. www.jamestowndistributors.com They have it in 1/4 inch and 3/8. 3/8 is obviously stronger.
When you cut the old plywood floor, to remove it, be careful to not cut or puncture the fiberglass skin beneath it, or the new resin will leak out when you pour it in.

Edited by - on

trptelf
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Response Posted - 03/11/2011 : 09:25:13

cshaw and ckroll

How did you fix your leaking scupper issue? Boatlife, 3M, Capt Tolley's, replace with CD brass kit or new plastic replacements?

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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Response Posted - 03/11/2011 : 11:20:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by trptelf
 cshaw and ckroll

How did you fix your leaking scupper issue? Boatlife, 3M, Capt Tolley's, replace with CD brass kit or new plastic replacements?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well, I have not started the repairs on Confetti yet. The scuppers for her do not go thru the transom, instead they are in the bottom of the aft corners of the cockpit sole, and Y together, and then to a glassed in thru hull back aft just to the side of the skeg. I was thinking of maybe getting two new ones that go thru the transome. They look larger and would hopefully drain faster.

Chuck

Edited by - on

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