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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Water Ballast Rudder (again)

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shemp
Deckhand

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USA
19 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/05/2011 : 18:42:24

OK, someone must have tried the idasailor rudder(s) on a 250wb and can compare it to the newest Catalina version. Yes????

Thanks

Jeff Dowling
Chicago
203

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2011 : 20:27:34

I have the IdaSailor rudder but haven't used it yet. Sorry. Ask me again in a few months.

FYI IdaSailor is now called Rudder Craft.

Edited by - on

jbdurbin
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2011 : 00:34:20

It appears that the CD tiller is an Idasailor tiller, per the web site specs. So is now generation 4? How does it compare to the other generations, would be the biggest question.

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2011 : 06:46:12

I've had the IDA kickup rudder for 6 years, upgraded from the original series 1 Catalina rudder, love it, have not come close to rounding up, with proper sail trim, with the tiller attached that whole assy is over 5 foot tall, bulky and heavy for one person. Will drag on ground if not raised or removed when launched. Hit a rock last October, sheared the shear pin and had to pull the rudder into the boat to replace it [no damage]. It's really like power steering, boat will hold course much better I feel
with this big blade down in the water.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2011 : 07:14:58

JB... is the CD offering a blade or beaching rudder?

As Bear points out... an adequate rudder (one that will handle aggressive sailing and be happy with an auto pilot) for the 250 WB really has to be longer than can be fixed in place when launching or retrieving. The Catalina 3rd (short WB version) doesn't fit that need.

A beaching rudder makes some very good sense as Bear points out, he may have had major damage (more like probably) had the hit not been absorbed by a shear pin. My Catalina modified 2nd beaching is held down by bungee.

Randy... I believe you will like the extra grip of the deep rudder.

What is the newest Catalina version... is generation three currently the rudder being supplied... and a one foot shorter for the water ballast?

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 02/06/2011 07:16:49

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/06/2011 : 09:47:53

Arlyn, I tried like heck to get a Catalina rudder a year ago. I actually got two and returned them both. The rudders were poorly formed. The first was not thick enough at the pintle mounting areas and had numerous glassing flaws. The second had a deformed blade under the waterline (one side was flat!). I had numerous conversations with the folks at Catalina who were trying hard but I came to the conclusion that when they moved production of the C250 from California to Florida that they lost the rudder molds. The molds they were using are defective in my opinion. Perhaps they have resolved the situation over the past year. The wing rudder is 71" and the WB is 59".

Here are photos of the second rudder.

The view from the top:

The curved side:

The flat side:

In the end I purchased the computer-carved High Aspect Ratio rudder from IdaSailor. I spoke to Lowell at Catalina Direct and he was very positive about this rudder and I respect his knowledge and judgment. I am looking forward to using it this season. It is deep (74") and balanced and has excellent airfoil shape.

If I had a water ballast I would purchase the IdaSailor kick-up rudder from CD (or directly from IdaSailor).

Edited by - Nautiduck on 02/06/2011 10:04:17

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2011 : 11:56:44

Randy, I'm surprised to see Catalina produce something that looks like that. Wow... they have really struggled with the rudder issue on the 250. That rudder was far from symmetrical... it would have been canted producing extra drag on a straight course.

I've related this in the past, but I had a long telephone conversation with Gerry Douglas about the rudder issue. At the time, he had just finished the design process for the 3rd but it was not yet available. His affirmation was that it would solve all the rudder issues of the 250. My response was, how can a blade only offering do that as one of the selling points that attracted me to the 250 was its ability to do skinny water by having a beaching rudder.

I urged him to stay with the 2nd beaching, that all it needed was a slight bit of forward rake and correcting the problems with the hold down system but he'd had a gut full of beaching rudder problems claiming that sailors couldn't be trusted to use them properly.

Of course my opinion was that he brought on those problems himself with a poorly designed hold down system on the rudder head. I realize you are probably not intimate with that, but once I scrapped his hold down system and raked the rudder forward a slight bit... the rudder became ideal and one could not want for better.

It is good to see that IDA is producing something to solve the Catalina void. Received an email just a couple of days ago from an owner wanting to Great Lakes sail but needing to solve his helm issues as the 3rd generation rudder was inadequate for aggressive conditions on his wb. I confirmed his thoughts that his rudder was too short.

Traditionally Frank Butler gained a great deal from letting owners feed back what works and doesn't but my thought is that Gerry Douglas doesn't have as much of that skill as Frank. The C250 was Gerry's baby and I think Frank left most of it to him.

It is a shame that Gerry had the answer to solving the rudder issue right on the phone with him and it would have required no changes in the rudder molds they had been using and only very small changes in the rudder head positioning and hold down system... all far simpler than designing a new rudder and molds for it.

I think the disconnect was that Gerry just couldn't envision that the hold down system he designed wasn't working.

Also, there was another iron in the skillet. The wheel offering had been discontinued because it wasn't working on the 250 and Gerry wanted it back. I've theorized that was by request from Edson because suffering too many warranty issues brought on by that poor rudder hold down no longer wanted to supply a steering kit for a beaching rudder.

Keep in mind, Gerry didn't tell me Edson was balking, that is a suspicion of mine. He did tell me that the wheel had been discontinued as a 250 option when I was discussing the problems of the auto helm with the wheel steering. At that point the problem had been the torque requirement. His claim was that the 3rd ought to solve those problems.

It did solve the torque issue but another equally serious issue came with the design that traded a high aspect ratio for a low aspect ratio. Low aspect ratios produce more lift at greater angles of attack whereas a high aspect ratio produces lots of lift at low angles and then stalls. Auto pilots don't like low aspect ratios.

As an example, if the rudder needs an extra ten degrees of attack to gain the lift needed to hold a course during a header puff, then the auto pilot goes bezerk with that angle not knowing that it must release that angle back to a normal angle after the header dissipates. A low aspect ratio rudder simply drives the auto pilot nuts. And.. the cruisers best friend is the auto pilot.

To be fair to Gerry Douglas, he had one other huge goal. A high aspect ratio rudder (like the 2nd) doesn't lift as good at slower speeds and Douglas was getting a lot of flack for the docking handling of the 250. He needed a rudder with more slow speed lift both in forward and reverse and did obtain that in the 3rd. I confess that was a very reasonable goal.

You may sense some lessening of slow speed control if your new rudder is a higher aspect ratio (longer and narrower and possibly thinner).

This was windy... but it may be of help.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 02/06/2011 12:06:25

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/06/2011 : 14:49:02

Thanks Arlyn, since I am going from the second gen rudder to the Ida High Aspect I am not expecting much change in slow speed steering. To be honest, slow speed steering has not been a problem for me although I know it dogs many others. Maybe because our slip at the lake is pretty much a straight shot in with little turning required.

One of the things that sailing has taught me is that there are trade-off with every choice, rudder design included. I am looking forward to a less strenuous helm when under way, especially in stronger winds.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 02/06/2011 14:52:04

jbdurbin
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2011 : 22:55:16

Arlyn,

Have you tried the IDA beaching rudder? I have read you distaste for the third on your website, and was wondering what you replaced it with.

You also stated that there is an extended version of the IDA beaching.... how long is it?

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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3704 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2011 : 07:59:57

Brandon, here is the Ida website. Click on Catalina in the left column and then chose the C250 rudder you are interested in.

[url="http://www.idasailor.com/catalog/default.php"]Rudder Craft[/url]

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2011 : 16:52:21

I went back to the Catalina 2nd beaching.

I've no experience with the IDA rudder. I hope I wasn't speaking out of hat that IDA continues to offer a beaching rudder.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 02/08/2011 16:53:12

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2011 : 17:33:47

I believe I have the long blade IDA beaching rudder, it is lower in the water than the swim ladder. Also getting use to this rudder I found over extending the tiller will turn the rudder into a brake, not much movement needed, lot of blade below the water line. There are other WB owners out there with the IDA rudder.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2011 : 17:56:14

Visiting the Rudder Craft site and looking at the beaching rudder I was quite surprised to see that it is not a balanced rudder and doesn't look deep enough.

In aggressive sailing conditions the 250 needs a lot of rudder and long enough to keep a good portion in the water during heeling.

Any rudder with enough grip must be balanced... it is just that simple. If not, it will require excessive effort at the helm.

And... any rudder that has enough grip is going to have to stay in the water well.

It doesn't look very long but that could be my computer monitor. The numbers for the various Catalina rudders are as follows.

1st beaching and blade - 61" (suffered inadequate control for even moderate conditions)
2nd blade - 76" (adequate control for aggressive conditions but too much effort needed - slow speed performance inadequate)
2nd beaching - 76" (adequate control for aggressive conditions but too much effort needed unless rudder head modified)
3rd blade (water ballast) - 59" (inadequate control for aggressive conditions and doesn't work well with auto pilot)
3rd blade (wing keel) - 71" (cracking around pintles)

Note that the wing keel is one foot longer than the water ballast. Also note that the 2nd was 17 inches longer than the 3rd for the water ballast... that is huge.

I'd want a rudder at least 71 inches long if I were doing aggressive sailing and it would have to be balanced.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 02/08/2011 18:14:22

shemp
Deckhand

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USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2011 : 19:55:51

I just got an email from ida and was informed the length of the 250wb wheel steering kickup rudder is 48" from the bottom of the rudder head. Any idea how this compares with the 2nd gen?

Edited by - on

shemp
Deckhand

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USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2011 : 19:57:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bear
 I believe I have the long blade IDA beaching rudder, it is lower in the water than the swim ladder. Also getting use to this rudder I found over extending the tiller will turn the rudder into a brake, not much movement needed, lot of blade below the water line. There are other WB owners out there with the IDA rudder.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Do you have any specifics on your ida rudder? wheel steering? 250wb?

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2011 : 04:59:37

Will take some measurements this evening of how much the rudder head is for the Catalina beaching.

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2011 : 06:19:11

Jeff, IDA rudder is tiller controlled, installed on a '95 C250WB with no additional weight in the bow. The rudder is out in my garage and I will measure it when the temperature goes above 0, currently -7.

Edited by - on

WindDancer
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2011 : 21:01:05

I have an IDA rudder on my 2006 250WB and have had it for a few years now and I love it. I sail on San Francisco Bay, Lake Tahoe, and Clearlake. All three locations can get good size waves and lots of wind. Then I first purchased my Catalina I thought that I made a huge mistake, the boat would prematurely round up with every little puff and the chain in the wheel steering would slip

. Very little control

. The Admiral hated the boat! I have many years of sailing with many different boats (blue water ocean and lakes) and the Catalina was the worst handling boat I had ever sailed. In walked Arlyn with the one of the two solutions; first of all I purchased Arlyn's cable steering system; and secondly I purchased the IDA rudder, huge difference. The boat sails like a dream, finger tip control, no more premature rounding up. The Admiral is happy and I'm very happy with the boat. The rudder is not as long as the above mentioned rudders, but it works great. With the shear pin the boat can sail in skinny water too. The one draw back is you need to raise the rudder before you pull it out on the trailer. Outside of that I would not hesitate in purchasing the IDA rudder

Hope this helps

Edited by - on

shemp
Deckhand

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USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2011 : 07:42:04

THANK YOU WINDDANCER! Thats what I was looking for. I agree with you. This boat is the worst handling boat Ive ever sailed as well. Im ordering Arlyn's steering mod tomorrow. Im considering getting the IDA kickup rudder to simplify trailering. Which IDA rudder did you buy? I dont trailer her that much so I can go either way. I dont want to compromise handling for convenience.
Thanks again.

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2011 : 10:35:38

OK, it's now 53 here in eastern New York. Went out and measured IDA beaching rudder. Total length 71 inches. Distance from bottom printle
to the bottom of the rudder 50 inches. Hope this helps.

Edited by - on

shemp
Deckhand

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USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2011 : 14:25:11

This is what I got from Ida regarding the beaching rudder for the wheel steer 250wb:

The chord is about 12.5", the blade length is about 48" from the bottom of the rudder head (and tucks inside the rudderhead another 12 inches).

The rudderhead itself is about 3 inches taller than your transom, though we can adjust that to a certain extent, and the pintles will be custom fit to your gudgeons as per your measurements.

This sounds to me like a shorter rudder than mentioned here. I have a call in to Ida to ask if they've changed it.

Edited by - on

shemp
Deckhand

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USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2011 : 09:00:58

WindDancer, which rudder did you purchase please? Does it have the pneumatic lift or a shear pin?

Thanks again

Edited by - on

JohnMD
Navigator

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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2011 : 09:42:26

My boat had the 3rd gen Catalina rudder and I'm being kind to say that it is sad. Horrible weather helm and wouldn't control the boat at slow (docking) speeds. I bought an Ida rudder (the one with the pneumatic arm) 3 years ago. It works much, much better than the factory rudder. The pneumatic arm works well and you raise the rudder by simply pulling a rope. When launching, my rudder clears the ramp by a couple of inches.

I don't think Ida makes a rudder for our boats that has a pin in it. Seriously, I wouldn't use it anyway. IF you do hit something with the rudder, why replace a pin when you don't have to. The arm just pushes it back down and you sail on.

If you go to their website and click on the Catalina 250 rudder, it will take you to a page with a block of pictures. Click on those pictures and it will show you what the rudder looks like on an actual boat. That's the actual rudder and an actual Catalina 250 on a trailer. (I know because those are pictures of my boat. Free Tshirt, you know).

Anyway, the rudders are expensive but they do work well and I couldn't find a better alternative. Just my opinion.

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2011 : 12:25:16

I may have gotten the last production IDA rudder with the shear pin, [6 years ago] could have had the pneumatic cylinder but the price difference and buying it during the slow months made quite a difference for going with the shear pin set up.

Edited by - on

shemp
Deckhand

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USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2011 : 09:41:53

Waiting for my new credit card to get 75k miles on American :) Pretty tough to beat that deal. I guess I'll go with the beaching rudder. Arlyn's setup is on the way. Cant wait to have a sailboat that actually acts like one.

Edited by - on

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
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