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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Selling/buying - what to consider in your price

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/17/2011 : 07:11:54

If I were loking for a used C-25, what are teh factors that push te price? If I were selling, what is the best way to determine fair price?

Is there a good way to evaluate improvements, restoration efforts, trailers and so on? How should I weight the value of different aspects of my boat or one that is for sale?

Does a trailer hold more value than a cradle if the trailer is in poor condition, despite the cost of repairs?

What about individual touches like shelves, custom paint, faired keels, and so on?

Lets see what everyone can come up with...

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

Take a minute to register your boat with the association!!
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/owner_questionnaire.htm

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2011 : 08:05:17

Bright, shiny, and solid put our boats at the high end of the range, and that includes the trailers. Like a renovated kitchen or bath in a home, improvements may increase salability but have little impact on price, and my improvements may be your DPO's. A beautifully restored boat on an immaculate trailer is worth a lot more to the seller and possible some buyer, but most C-25 buyers are looking at entry level or step up from a day sailor boating on a budget. A ratty trailer drops the price of a trailerable boat whether it's going to be trailered or not, and some means of storage is generally presumed to be included, so again, a ratty but solid trailer probably doesn't add value but does increase the market.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2011 : 08:22:07

First, I would think overall condition to be #1. After that, I would think that the add-ons and their condition might be second. My boat was completely stock when I purchased it. Not even an am/fm radio. It had a VHF and a "ratty" trailer. I have only used the trailer one time, to bring the boat to my home port. But, I keep it because I think it will add some value when I go to sell, even if it is "ratty".

I added many things to the boat; anchor roller, roller furling and new furling sail, solar cabin ventilation, reefing equipment, cabin top winch, bimini, autopilot, am/fm cd stereo w/mp3, CO2 detector, new 4-stroke, solar panel. I would hope these things would add value when I go to sell, but I will never be able recoup the investment.

If I had to do it again, I would look for an '89 wing with as many of these add-ons already installed.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2011 : 08:29:01

How opportune. I plan on sellling mine in the next two or three years and only have a cursery understanding of how the market works.

What I think I know is that the value of the boat is driven by the region of the country in which it is being sold. Fresh water boats for instance, bring a higher price than salt water boats. Any after market equipment like autopilots and depth sounders, must either be removed, in which case the "saleability" or "appeal" of the boat is lost, or it is left on the boat but does not necessarily add to it's value, just "curb appeal" if you were selling your house. Of course the basic boat, hull, deck, keel, cabin, stock equipment, and the motor if any, should be in reasonably good condition given the boats age.I don't believe that any improvements or maintenance you may have done have a significant impact on the value of the boat. You may get some money but the primary value is how it appeals to the prospective buyer and how a survayer would rate the boat.

As far as trailers are concerned, I would think that the important stuff is the condition of the breaking system and type, and the condition of lights and tires. Paint or lack of rust is "curb appeal". When it's all said and done though, the boat sells the trailer. I may be wrong but I don't think there is a market-driven price established for them. You get what you can. A trailer is a better selling point for the boat than a cradle in my opinion though.

I have put about $8,000 into my C25 in the past 24 years. I expect to get about that much out of it when I finally sell.

That's what I think I know. Hopefully we get some additional opinion.

Edited by - aeckhart on 03/17/2011 08:35:25

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2011 : 08:55:38

One other thing to consider when selling or buying anything; boat, car, house, or toilet paper, is that the market has changed. Four or five years ago, you might look thru your local newspaper for a boat, thats how I purchased mine, but today, you have Craigslist, Yachtworld, eBay. When selling, you are compared, price and otherwise, not just locally, but internationally.

I own a retail store, we have customers scanning product bar codes with their smart phones to see if they can get a cheaper price elsewhere. This is where the internet has not helped. The technology has boiled the product down to one thing - price. It's no different with a boat.

Edited by - Davy J on 03/17/2011 08:57:26

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2011 : 09:20:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 If I were selling, what is the best way to determine fair price?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A boat, or anything really, is only worth what someone else will pay for it. I've seen boats languish for years on the market as the seller waited for someone to come along and pay what they felt the boat was worth. I had my eye on a C30 once that sat high and dry in the boatyard for about 4-5 years with a for sale sign on it. A big part of the equation is the local market. Around my neck of the woods, boats are cheap. At one time my marina had five C25's, all of which were purchased for under $3,000.00. (two of them were under $1,500.00) Granted, some of these boats weren't real peaches, but those looking at buying a 25-30 year old boat aren't exactly expecting "like new" condition and they certainly aren't expecting to pay "like new" prices.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2011 : 09:22:28

As a prospective buyer, over the last few months I have looked at every Catalina 25 listing I can find. I’ve also taken the time to learn about the boat. I’ve studied owners manuals, parts manuals, many posts and reviews to find out what the differences are over the life of the product offering, what options were available, which ones were most popular and which are somewhat uncommon. I’ve also learned about the most common issues found and remedied on the boats.

Prices can vary by quite a bit, depending on market area and current economic conditions. For example, right now, spring of 2011, is an excellent time to be a buyer and a horrible time to be a seller. This will change though. Where you are looking has quite an impact. Boats tend to be higher priced in an area where there is little competition. Boats kept in salt water tend to be less expensive than boats kept in fresh water. Then there are the anomalies: boats priced way more than the market will bear or other similar boats in the area, and “get rid of it now” boats where the owner just wants to move it as quickly as possible. Reasons for this are anyone’s guess.

Year model, condition, and “includes” are the main factors affecting the value. The early model years, ’77 to 81 are usually the lowest in value, due to lack of manufacturing improvements (like the isolated fuel locker). Mid cycle models, ’82 to ’86 are moderate value line and the most common ones you will find on the market. These models benefit from several key improvements made from the first generation models. The end of cycle models, ’86 to ’90, are the most valuable because they benefit from the best manufacturing process and design (wing keel, etc) learned from the previous generations.

Condition is a key role in addition to year model. A vessel that is obviously worn out: chalky paint, worn out cushions, non functional systems (head, stove, electrical), standing rigging with meathooks, blown out sails, frayed running rigging, bottom in dire need….you get the idea. There are tons of things that will show if this boat was loved, sailed and taken care of (what you want) or ignored, slip queen, taken out only rarely.

“Includes” are options, trailer, motor, improvements, electronics; anything added to the vessel that will increase it’s value. Obviously, a nice appropriately sized motor (7 to 10HP according to Owners Manual) in good running condition, a dual axle trailer in good shape will add significantly to the value, as much as $4000! Lack of these will likewise detract appropriately from the value. Factory options have an effect on value as well. 3 keels were offered over the years: Swing, Fixed, Wing. 3 Interiors were offered: Dinette, Traditional, L shaped (somewhat rare). 110 volt shore power, dual batteries, marine head, fresh water deck fill, pop top (rare to NOT have), Standard Rig or Tall Rig. Lack of these options, various combinations of them, or a fully loaded boat have a decided effect on value.

I hesitate to put prices here as it will immediately date my post and possibly offend owners who think their boats are worth more than they are. So, I’ll say this: This is JUST my opinion and findings from the first part of 2011 in the current market. This can change and the true value is always what someone will actually pay for it, no matter the value you assign to it.

The least expensive boats are the early cycle boats in poor condition. I’ve seen them priced as low as $2500, but I wouldn’t offer on them due to the amount of work and money they will need. However, if one was found to be fully restored, perfect and ready to sail, it could be worth upwards of $4500.

The most common boats on the market are the mid cycle boats, ’82 to ’86. Prices vary by quite a bit depending on the factors above. A boat in acceptable condition but needs work $3500. A boat that is nice, clean, ready to sail and everything works, $5500. A boat that is exceptional, beautifully restored with new rigging and sails can go upwards of $6500, and if it has a trailer, $8500.

The least common but most desirable boats are the ’88 to 90 wing keel, tall rigs. Not many of these are on the market, but when they hit they easily go for $10,000 or more. Exceptional boats with trailers can go for $14,500. If you can find one of these and afford it, get it.

When placing a value on a particular boat, you have to consider: Market, Condition, Year Model, Options, Includes and most importantly, your local competition.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2011 : 09:56:05

IMHO
You have to consider what other boat can be bought for "that money". I sold my 82 for 9 and my 89 for 12.5, (with trailers), because a buyer could buy better boats for anymore money than that in each case. To get top dollar you must have a perfect example of the genre. I don't see how a model before the external fuel locker can pull more than 7 and an early series with the forward scuppers is probably stuck around 5 or 6. After considering those price ceilings your improvements only make people buy your boat instead of someone else's. Both of my boats sold in days, my club has several C 25s that have been for sale for several years... priced too high.

Edited by - pastmember on 03/17/2011 09:59:40

NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2011 : 09:57:26

When I shopped, I only looked for a 89+. Then, I looked to make sure there weren't any permanent modifications. I want it to be modded to fit me. I don't want someone elses customized boat. So mine was pretty much factory stock. And when doing modifications, I try not to put holes in the walls.

I agree that having a trailer, no matter the condition, adds a ton of value. Especially with the shipping costs due to rising fuel prices.

Edited by - NautiC25 on 03/17/2011 09:59:19

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2011 : 11:50:23

Trailer is a huge part of the overall price. These boats are on the large end of "trailer sailors", and most people move them rarely and leave them slipped. So trailers are there but somewhat uncommon, being found in maybe 30% of the ads.

Without a trailer, the boat only appeals to someone who wants it where it is. It simply costs too much to move them considering the base cost of the boat. Depending on how far you want to move it and the asking price to begin with, it may cost more to move the boat than it's worth. For example, me being in Texas, a great deal on a boat on New Jersey is not such a great deal when it costs $4500 to move it to me.

With a trailer, anyone with access to a 3/4 ton truck or better can go get it for the cost of fuel. This opens up your market of potential buyers significantly, and is so reflected in the asking price.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2011 : 12:05:54

The C-25's somewhat unique position on the market is that it's about the biggest relatively common sailboat that can be trailered. There are many C-27s out there for comparable prices--they are "wide loads" requiring a lift and a commercial tow vehicle. But the C-27 has standing headroom, usable side-decks, and a bigger-boat feel. (Plus, most have inboards, which some people think makes a "real" yacht.)

That said, I bought Passage, a fin keeler, with no trailer. My choice was partly because I absolutely did not want in inboard. A few things that helped get me to pay close to the asking price were a Honda outboard (which I later replaced), roller furling, relatively new sails, and a general appearance of being maintained (partly an illusion). What that price was is meaningless now, but I my offer was respectful, and it was quickly accepted.

Within a couple of years, we had replaced the interior cushions (20 boat units), "traded" the Honda for a new Honda (net 13 boat units), finished the brightwork, replaced the curtain-burner, replace the standing and running rigging, led running rigging to the cockpit, bought a balanced rudder, added a bimini, replace the sail cover... and a few other things.

Seven years later, I listed Passage on the Swap Meet, with a number of pix, like this one:

(Notice: obviously no built-in stereo system... but no clutter--unless you call that rug clutter.

)

45 minutes later, I got a call from a couple who were very anxious to see her right away, but couldn't make it till the next morning. That morning, they stepped aboard, could hardly contain their excitement, made an offer (no contingencies--cash on the barrel); I countered, we split the difference, and they wrote a check.

Later, they told me a little about their search... Thay had owned several sailboats--some larger... They had looked at so many boats with junk inside, dirt outside, etc., etc. When they saw mine in the listing, their were interested; and then on the dock, their hearts started pounding. I was priced right for an '85--that helped get them here. But the "curb appeal"--clean deck, shiny hull, finished teak, beautiful interior cushions, no clutter, shiny almost-new Honda... They had to have her! The final sale was for just a few boat units less than what I bought her for, but in no way recovered my "investment."

As discussed above, people search and analyze on the Web, and your price needs to get you past that first filter. That gets them to your dock (or trailer)... What happens next is substantially driven by emotion, whether anyone admits it or not. The C-25 is a "starter-cruiser"--the buyers are generally not that savvy about sailboats. A boat is not a necessity--it's not for utility... Buying one is exciting! You know what they say is the first of the two best days in a sailor's life...

A '79 is a '79. An '85 is an '85. An '89 is an '89--not just due to age, but due to the upgrades by Catalina. That's the first and primary criterion for the price. Your replacements and upgrades (1) helped you enjoy her, and (2) kept her in the competition. Price her so they'll come. Then make their hearts skip a beat when they get there... Make the old girl sparkle--she'll sell herself, and you won't be storing her for another year.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/17/2011 12:13:50

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