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Tall Rig Sailors - need some help

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mikesuej
Navigator

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USA
119 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/18/2011 : 09:49:48

I sail a CAT250 WK on a small lake in KY and am by no means an experienced sailor having just graduated from a West Wight Potter. I still can get a little spooked sometime even in KY with winds at 12-13 knots.

I'm looking at buying a new main next year or so and I've read here that many think the C250 tall rig is overpowered.

Catalina has sent me a conversion instructions to standard rig which looks easy enough - basically saw the top off, cut a couple notches, replace the mast head, cut shrouds - could all be done on a weekend.

So here is my question. Since we slip on a lake where we typically have light winds - 5-10 usually, but often during spring and fall, we do blow between 10-15 on occassion.

Should I stick with the tall rig and just put a couple of deep reefs in the main or should I convert to standard rig with one reef?

I posed the question to Catalina and he went so far as to suggest a third reef, which makes me think I should just convert to standard rig.

Would love to know opinions of more experienced sailors on the tall rig if it is WAY over powered or is it managable and preferable for inland lake sailing where light winds are more routine?

Thanks!

Michael T. Janocik
Seatitude

Edited by - on

vholmstrom
1st Mate

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USA
51 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2011 : 13:28:09

Michael,

We have a standard rig with 2 reef points on the main and my wife does not like excessive healing, so I use the reefs most of the time. I normally reef as follows: wind less than 12 knots: full main, full 110% jib. Approaching 12 knots wind, I put the first reef in the main. Approaching 17 knots I put the second reef in the main. After that I furl in the jib. More wind, I start the motor and go home. I like a balanced boat, so I reef the main first, then furl the jib. On our boat a furled jib affects jib shape and pointing ability, so I furl it last.

I mentioned our control line setup on another post. When we first got the boat, I had to go to the mast to set up the reefs at the tack. Since then, I installed a mast gate and led most control lines to the cockpit. That makes reefing easier and safer, so I tend to do it sooner. I think with easy reefing and 2 reef points, a tall rig would be easier to manage without having to cut the mast. Ask your sailmaker where the reef points should be to fit your conditions. Three reefs would require more control lines and hardware to manage them.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2011 : 14:35:37

The tall rig is designed for light wind sailing. Sounds like what you have. I wouldn't saw off the mast for at least another season. Get some more experience on the boat. Reef early until your more comfortable. I think that cutting the mast is pretty drastic. I think that you might also have better resale in the future since there are so few tall rig 250s.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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4304 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2011 : 19:24:07

Leave the mast alone and do as suggested above. If you cut the mast you will be kicking yourself shortly when summer comes and the winds get light.

Also, if you cut the mast you have to shorten all your stays and buy new sails to match the mast.

I don't remember if the C250 is main driven or jib driven so take the following advice with a grain of salt. Others will correct me if I mis-state the following:

Another option would be to just use the jib/genoa and leave the main down on windy days until you get more experience with the boat.

Edited by - GaryB on 03/19/2011 19:24:57

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 03/19/2011 : 21:21:31

I would hold off on buying the new main and get another year of experience. Learn to reef and do so when needed. Do you have a furler? If so furl it in also to depower the boat. Sometimes if the wind is strong on our lake we just take the main down and sail on the genny. The boat does very well with that.

If, after another year, you still feel overpowered then think about cutting down the mast.

What year is your 250? What rudder do you have?

Also note that we usually sail at 0-20 degrees tilt but we sometimes get to 35 degrees! You may just need some time to get used to a lean. The boat is not going to capsize.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 03/19/2011 21:26:20

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2011 : 21:25:01

We sail our TR WK on Puget Sound, and it's easy for us to get overpowered. We bought a 70% jib, and usually start out the day with one reef tucked in. It's easy to shake it out if the wind is light, and nice to have a second reef in reserve if we need it. My wife doesn't like heeling at all so I try to sail as flat as possible. It's quite possible to have a very nice sail indeed on just the 110% jib without the main at all.

Edited by - on

willy
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422 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2011 : 06:41:52

Michael,
Reading the above threads has me agreeing with just about everybody. DON"T cut the mast...DO Reef early and often! I hardly ever use my first reefpoint...waiting until the wind blows 15 knots and going right to the second...pretty much always balancing that by reefing of the jib (rolling up about 40% of it). The gain in control, flattening of the boat, and increase in actual speed will solve your issue, cost you nothing, and leave you the option of "lots of canvas" should the wind fall below 5 knots!
Willy

Edited by - on

britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2011 : 08:58:47

Mike,
I believe you have what was named Knotty Cat (Tom Potter's previous boat).

We sailed our boat along side (you know what that means

) in Pensacola a few years ago. We have a C250 WB (no tall rig available for our model) and Tom was sailing his boat with all sail out and towing his dink. It was a delight seeing his boat carve it up and he had no problems handling it in the strong breeze (Pretty sure it was 17knts most of the time)

So I agree with all above, don't change it, grow into it!

We, like Vic & Thelma, prefer to keep our boat on an even keel. So we reef early too.
I used to be reluctant to reef, it's no hassle, but I like all the sail out. However, after suitable arguments by the admiral, I kept her happy and reefed. Now I find that we sail happier (

), little heeling, and still get over 5 knots in winds below 14knts.

Agreed with above, it's so easy to furl in the jib that is the last thing to reef.

Go sail!

Paul

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2011 : 09:07:02

Ok... I'll make the opposing argument.

Catalina discontinued the tall rig 250 quite shortly after offering it. As most Catalina owners know, Catalina does very little R&D... preferring instead to rely on owner feedback. They got plenty of that on the tall rig 250.

Tall rigs are a good idea for light air venues but they work much better on a boat than has some forgiveness of the extra heeling leverage they produce. The C250 is the least forgiving boat I've sailed to greater heeling angles as the hull shape produces monster weather helm.

Catalina was for a while, returning tall rigs to standard at NO cost... there is a message there in that Catalina knew they had made a mistake and endeavored to correct it.

So... to a degree... the tall rig C250 is a mistake that probably is best corrected. It would have been better if the original owner had done so on Catalina's dime.

Leaving it tall, will require reducing sail and slowing the boat and losing performance. The standard rig 250 especially the wing keel version is a great boat in light air and doesn't need a tall rig to make it move.

Even the standard rig requires two reefs with the second being quite deep so Catalina's recommendation of three reefs is probably a good one. Also, tall rigs were only produced IIRC around '96 maybe '97 and Catalina was only putting one reef in the sails then. Your main may now have only one... and therefore is way overpowered, and more especially if it is getting old and tired and deeply pocketed.

Without hesitation or looking back, I'd convert to a standard rig when your ready to buy a new sail and until doing so in any kind of breeze (anything over 10mph), only run the headsail.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 03/20/2011 09:09:12

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2011 : 10:04:23

If you shorten the rig, what do you plan to do about your sails? Are they worth having a sailmaker re-cut them, or would the money be better spent on new? If you have a furler, you'll need to shorten that... and shortening the shrouds means re-doing the upper swages--something best done by a professional rigger.

I tend to agree with Arlyn (which might startle some old-timers here

)--Catalina essentially declared the C-250 TR a failed experiment and took it off the market. (I hadn't heard about the retrofitting.) They were having enough problems with customers complaining about rounding up when heeling (because of the broad stern), and were experimenting with rudders to correct that... The TR just meant more heeling, and therefore more tendency to round up--frustrating and even a little dangerous. If you race in a TR, you'll have to give up some PHRF seconds compared to standard, the boat will be harder to sail to her numbers, and there won't be anybody to race one-design--even at our Nationals. If you don't race, you don't need that excessive power.

If this boat is pretty new to you, you might make an appeal to Frank Butler, Catalina founder, that you recently bought something that you have come to understand was an abandoned experiment by his company. Who knows--he might give you a hand--there is precedent. It's common to put a "sunset clause" on such programs, but this boat is new to you. And Catalina gets a lot of upgrade sales from current customers.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2011 : 23:10:13

So here's a question I pondered when I first thought about converting my TR to a standard rig (quite early on, and I still think about it from time to time). Why do you need to cut down the mast if you want to use the standard main? Couldn't you just bend on the standard main & leave the extra three feet of mast above the top of the sail?

It seems like a lot less work, no new shrouds, sail controls, halyards, etc. Is there a technical reason that you'd have to cut down the mast, or is it esthetics?

Edited by - delliottg on 03/20/2011 23:10:53

britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2011 : 03:36:07

David, wouldn't you have to raise the boom?

No big deal, but???

Paul.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2011 : 07:41:51

Seems like nothing more than aesthetics to me--basically like a reef without the reef. And you could do a season that way before making the final decision to shorten. Is the 250-TR boom lower like the C-25 TR, or is the whole difference in the mast height? (The C-25 gets 3' more luff-length with just a 2' taller mast--the boom is a foot lower.

)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/21/2011 07:43:53

djbano
1st Mate

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67 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2011 : 08:40:26

I live in CO and sail my TR on a front range reservoir where it is very breezy. I sailed 99% of last year with a reef in the main and my 135 furled to about 105-110 or less and several days on a double reef flying a handkerchief for a jib. I am getting new sails made this year. My main will have the foot shortened by 1ft. and the jib will be a 100. I can't imagine going through the hassle and expense of swapping the mast. My new sailplan will give me about the same sail area as a standard rig. This was originally suggested by Gary Swenson/Ullman and refined by Tim Woodhouse (Hood Sails). Tim suggested the 100 while Gary suggested 105-108. Most of the sailing here is either calm - in which case it's hot and I have jet skis and speedboats buzzing around like flies or we're sailing on our ear - and usually still have the "flies". I'm getting Hood Vektron. Get a suite a of sails with dimensions that suits your typical conditions.

Just a thought, if your main is in good shape you could get it recut and shorten the foot or just sail with a reef in. The bonus to sailing with a reef is when you douse your main your cockpit isn't full of sail. Sailing solo is easy. Flaking an already reefed main is quick. Having spent a season and knowing how my TR sails, I think I'm going to be pleased with the new sails.

Spend a season with things as they are. I think the suggestion to wait and see how your boat behaves is a good one. If you sail the majority of your time with a reef in you might do something like me. I'll post with pics and feedback in a month or so. I need to get my boat ready to launch but spring skiing is taking precedence.

DJ

Edited by - on

PCP777
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1225 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2011 : 10:31:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mikesuej
 I sail a CAT250 WK on a small lake in KY and am by no means an experienced sailor having just graduated from a West Wight Potter. I still can get a little spooked sometime even in KY with winds at 12-13 knots.

I'm looking at buying a new main next year or so and I've read here that many think the C250 tall rig is overpowered.

Catalina has sent me a conversion instructions to standard rig which looks easy enough - basically saw the top off, cut a couple notches, replace the mast head, cut shrouds - could all be done on a weekend.

So here is my question. Since we slip on a lake where we typically have light winds - 5-10 usually, but often during spring and fall, we do blow between 10-15 on occassion.

Should I stick with the tall rig and just put a couple of deep reefs in the main or should I convert to standard rig with one reef?

I posed the question to Catalina and he went so far as to suggest a third reef, which makes me think I should just convert to standard rig.

Would love to know opinions of more experienced sailors on the tall rig if it is WAY over powered or is it managable and preferable for inland lake sailing where light winds are more routine?

Thanks!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If your lake is anything like mine you'll need all the sail area you can get in June, July and August when the wind basically dies out. Do you have roller furling? What I do when the wind is over 18 knots, if I have novices on board or just looking for a relaxed brews cruise I will usually just use the head sail only, I have a 135 and it can get me up to hull speed just fine in a nice breeze.

I would not alter your boat until you explore all the different sail options that have been discussed. If you don't have roller furling I would definitely look into it, best upgrade I've done on the boat.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2011 : 11:01:23

DJ,

Have you thought about making your 100% self-tacking? I know I would. Frank Farmer (AADiver) had a thread a while ago on how he did it. Great mod for a sail that isn't going to smack the mast on its way past.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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3704 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2011 : 12:21:10

DJ, nice solution. Leave the mast alone and reduce sail by design. Well done.

Edited by - on

djbano
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 03/21/2011 : 14:54:00

I saw the self tacking rigs that some had adopted and found it interesting. I like tacking and adjusting the sails. My boat has cam cleats near the winches that I use for making the sheets fast. There are photos of my boat and the mods the original owner completed on this website.

Although my admiral is not yet passionate about sailing she does seem game to help and learn. Besides, where else but on a sailboat can you order your wife around between the sheets all day? My lines are long enough to reach the back of the cockpit so singlehanding is easy as well.

Edited by - on

ruachwrights
Captain

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USA
258 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2011 : 11:41:25

I would tend to agree with the "gain more experience before cutting the mast" crowd. I have the tall rig and I sail on coastal waters. I am a complete sailing addict (perhaps idiot) and am out with my family at least twice a week. This means that we have been out in all kinds of conditions. Reefing is important, but I have sailed in some fairly serious conditions, have found my boat to be far more capable than I myself have stomach for, and am thus far satisfied with my single reef point in my tall rig main. Granted my entire family rather enjoys the feel of heel and salt spray.

I also spoke to the c250 designer once (not Frank Butler by the way) in one of many of the phone calls I have put through to Catalina. He felt that there was absolutely no problem with the tall rig. Apparently there is an avid racing community on a lake in California some place and they prefer the tall rigs. I gathered in our conversation that rig reduction seemed to be more of an issue of caving into peer pressure more than anything else. Larger rudders have also helped the boat deal with excessive weather helm. Remember, weather helm itself should not be a problem. It is your sailboat trying to communicate to you that you need to a) pay attention, b) spill the main a bit, C) consider reducing sail. If you did not have weather helm a knock down would be the alternative means of communication.

Beyond 18 kts, after I have reefed the main, I reduce my 150 genny to about 110 or 100. When conditions get really mean (22kts + and gusty) and I don't have to beat to windward, I prefer to sail with no genny so that I can spill the sail from my position at the wheel. The Genoa alone works great if conditions are steady, but it is hard to head to the cabin top for the winches if you get into an emergency- especially if your single handed it do not have the luxury of an autopilot! If I do have to beat to windward I put out a little bit of the genny and this gives me some drive. Remember, beyond 17kts of wind is exciting in any vessel. Beyond 25kts you probably should not even be out. Sailor lore states that you should not be out in winds which exceed your hull length. By the way, there is nothing to be ashamed of for firing up that iron genny when things get rough. Sailors are already way up there on the testosterone curve.

This said, do be cautious- especially with green crew when winds exceed 15. Make sure they know what heel feels like and not to panic should you start to heel beyond 20 degrees. I had my twelve year old son on the helm one time on one of our initial voyages. When the boat started to dramatically heel as I was sheeting in the genny, he let go of the wheel in a panic. The boom came tearing accross the cockpit at an alarming rate grazing my scalp. If I was an inch taller I would not be writing this. He was simply not used to the feel of our boats heel. Though he had helmed many other boats of a more traditional sheer line, when a 250 heels for real, the galley starts to rumble.

Vern Wright
Narraganset Bay

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