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Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2011 : 20:57:02

Sweet! The rum I was drinking was Sailor Jerry as well! I'm gonna have to come out there with you guys soon....I just got in from the lake. I managed to get a sail in this evening, to one side of the lake and back. The wind was really good tonight and I'm getting pretty good with my sail trim. I experimented tonight to see how close I could get before the sails started to luff and I started to stall...then I'd drop off and pick back up.

I've read other posts about degrees from wind and all, but I don't know how to measure that...I just was able to hold her where the tail of the windex was perfectly aligned with the wire with the orange tab on it (whatever you call that) and hold her there, through the puffs and all...even got it a little inside a few times, but she'd start to slow....she handles real nice with just a touch of weather helm....I'd estimate the 3 degrees or so that is usually recommended. I don't look at the windex all that much, just glance every so often. I sail more by the way the boat feels and where the wind is coming from on my face, plus I look at the telltales alot to keep them streaming aft.

I only did two tacks tonight, one was a gybe...I'm getting really good at those.....then picked my spot by a bouy...sailed up to it and stopped, doused the sail and tidied up. I made the marina just after sundown.

Another great evening.....why didn't I do this sooner in life?

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 05:55:27

Assuming you have the tabs on your windex set right, they are a fairly good indicator of where you want to be when sailing upwind - however...

You should be referencing your GPS rather than your knotlog for upwind speeds. Set teh gps to show both speed and speed to a point, aka velocity made good. You want to maximize your velocity made good (vmg) even if it means sacrificing some hull speed. This is racing stuff, but it is how you get from A to B the fastest when travelling upwind.

You may find that this means sailing inside your windex tabs - we often do, and sacrifice hull speed for VMG, while trying not to pinch too hard.

Edited by - Prospector on 05/24/2011 05:56:32

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 07:45:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Diver
 Sweet! The rum I was drinking was Sailor Jerry as well! I'm gonna have to come out there with you guys soon....I just got in from the lake. I managed to get a sail in this evening, to one side of the lake and back. The wind was really good tonight and I'm getting pretty good with my sail trim. I experimented tonight to see how close I could get before the sails started to luff and I started to stall...then I'd drop off and pick back up.

I've read other posts about degrees from wind and all, but I don't know how to measure that...I just was able to hold her where the tail of the windex was perfectly aligned with the wire with the orange tab on it (whatever you call that) and hold her there, through the puffs and all...even got it a little inside a few times, but she'd start to slow....she handles real nice with just a touch of weather helm....I'd estimate the 3 degrees or so that is usually recommended. I don't look at the windex all that much, just glance every so often. I sail more by the way the boat feels and where the wind is coming from on my face, plus I look at the telltales alot to keep them streaming aft.

I only did two tacks tonight, one was a gybe...I'm getting really good at those.....then picked my spot by a bouy...sailed up to it and stopped, doused the sail and tidied up. I made the marina just after sundown.

Another great evening.....why didn't I do this sooner in life?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

man you must be good at dodging these storms.

Actually I went to the marina to check something on the boat and it was HOWLING on Hubbard, not something I would choose to sail in. It is a trip how different parts of the Metroplex can have completely different weather going on.

As far as sailing close to the wind, the best way I've found is to sail by the tell tales on your head sail. Once you have your sails trimmed for close haul then sail fast to the tell tales. Here's a good link with pictures..

http://www.ukhalsey.com/LearningCenter/encyclopedia/encyclopedia5c.asp

Edited by - PCP777 on 05/24/2011 07:56:23

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 08:17:41

Peter,

Yes, I am dodging storms....I've been lucky in that there have only been a few that have hit the lake...most have gone south of us....but I still have to douse and wait on them to pass as even far south, those cells are throwing off some strong winds and gusts. Last night was absolutely perfect. That big storm way up by Wichita Falls and Archer City, that caused all the overcast to the north, was drawing a steady flow of air into it from the southwest, around 10 to 12 kts. When the sun finally dipped below the anvil, the sunset was beautiful!

Prospector,

I don't have a working knot meter on the boat, but I use an app on my iPhone called Dashboard...It's GPS based and I know it's speed over ground, but for me it's close enough. I think next time I go out, I'll tag some locations on the lake...like the sailboat buoys used for racing....and then I can use the GPS to track speed to target....and when I'm spending a whole day sailing I can sail the tracks several times, try different things and see which one works the best for me in my boat. You're right though, that is racing stuff and getting pretty granular...I'm not there yet....I'm still learning the basics of just getting her going and keeping her going all by myself.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 10:08:57

Your GPS (iPHONE) should have both velocity and VMG. play with buttons and see what you can find.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2011 : 08:36:11

Sailing Update:

I managed to get away from work yesterday early enough to get to the lake by 6:00 and get in an evening sail.

The wind was blowing pretty strong at first, but Sailflow was predicting a drop of 5 kts or so....so I motored out into the lake intending to drift and wait it out. It was really windy, 20+kts with gusts, large waves (for the lake) about 2-3' with white caps and long streaks of foamy water. She handled it well, bobbing up and down and bashing through the waves, with spray occasionally coming up over the bow. A few of the waves were big enough for the bow to come completely out of the water and slap back down. No way I would be able to get my sails out by myself. Even drifting, I was making 1.8 kts!

A guy in a C27 came out and I watched him trying to hoist his main as he motored into the wind. He was not successful, and I watched as his main luff'd violently as he struggled with it. He kept at it, motoring into the wind, and even though we rapidly drifted apart, he finally got it right and sailed off, heeled way over. Eventually I had to motor back out, and by this time more sailboats were trying to come out. One guy came out of the Boat Club, unfurled his jib, sailed maybe a quarter mile, furled it and motored back in. I still had faith though that the winds would calm a bit.

Finally, back in the protection of my slough, I was able to get my main up and start sailing. As I got back out into the open lake, sailing close hauled, the conditions had in fact improved, but were still 15 kts or so. Another C25, the Maria Elena, came by flying both sails and we chatted, sailing side by side until they tacked and sailed off.

As I maintained my tack, making 2.8 to 3.2 kts, I decided to play with the traveler. Since the winds were fairly gentle, I moved the traveler all the way windward. What a difference it made! It reduced my heel to almost nothing and almost completely removed the weather helm. My speed also increased to 3.8 kts...all with that one simple adjustment. As I rounded the Boat Club point, I got the full force of the winds again, coming down the open north/south run of the lake. She heeled over about 20 degrees and the speed picked up to 4.6 kts+, making 5 kts in the puffs. Weather helm also increased quite a bit, so I eased the traveler all the way to leeward. Again, what a difference that made! Heel was much less, weather helm significantly diminished and speed picked up. Now I was splashing through the waves, with the occasional spray and drops getting me wet back in the cockpit. I eventually turned around and went back, but now I was on a run, centered the traveler and made my way back to my slough.

When I finally doused sail and tidied up, I drifted along thinking about what I learned with the traveler and how I was going to apply it....I also learned something else:

My traveler sucks!

I think I'm the only one who has used it in years. Judging by the condition of the rigging, and the fact that it does not move easily by itself...I had to luff up and move it with quite a bit of effort....I'm going to take it apart, clean it up real good and see if I can get it working better. It's not a very quality piece of equipment...looks kinda chincy really...like "here's a traveler so you can say you have one" rather than something actually useful. Maybe I'll be better off replacing it with something decent that works well and is easy to use.

Has anyone replaced their stock traveler? Have something better to recommend?

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2011 : 08:23:23

I use the stock traveler often when beating to windward. It has, I suppose, only a 2:1 mechanical advantage, so it cannot be pulled to windward. If I am pinching on each tack to get past the various shoals in my local river and out onto the bigger bay, I always release the traveler to leeward just before coming about and secure it in that "traveler down" position. Then after completing the tack, the traveler is in the "traveler up" position that I want to sail at the tightest angle to the breeze. The traveler mechanism is not elegant or powerful, but it works great just the same.

I think you would need a 6:1 or 8:1 mechanical advantage if you wanted to tighten the traveler when it was under tension, and I can live without that functionality.

My traveler, outhaul, and topping lift are simple devices and could be replaced by very intricate and expensive versions of the same thing, but they each do what I need.

Edited by - JohnP on 09/16/2011 08:24:14

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2011 : 09:46:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JohnP
 I use the stock traveler often when beating to windward. It has, I suppose, only a 2:1 mechanical advantage, so it cannot be pulled to windward. If I am pinching on each tack to get past the various shoals in my local river and out onto the bigger bay, I always release the traveler to leeward just before coming about and secure it in that "traveler down" position. Then after completing the tack, the traveler is in the "traveler up" position that I want to sail at the tightest angle to the breeze. The traveler mechanism is not elegant or powerful, but it works great just the same.

I think you would need a 6:1 or 8:1 mechanical advantage if you wanted to tighten the traveler when it was under tension, and I can live without that functionality.

My traveler, outhaul, and topping lift are simple devices and could be replaced by very intricate and expensive versions of the same thing, but they each do what I need.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Agreed, even though I have a cabin house after market traveler, if it's anything north of 15 knots and I haven't adjusted it during the tacking process as John describes it takes huge effort to adjust it after the fact. I even have it running through to of my small cabin top winches, again, timing is everything.

You can see my traveler fairly well in this shot...

Ah here's a good shot...

Edited by - PCP777 on 09/16/2011 09:47:54

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2011 : 14:17:09

Looks like your traveler may have a severe bend in the middle? OUr traveler is still at the stern, so results may differ: But I believe the traveler should be a continuous arc rather than shaped as a "v" Do you notice it stick at that point more than another? Try cleaning gently the car.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2011 : 17:24:58

I fixed my traveler a while back...[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23440"]HERE[/url]....had to cut a couple holes in my boat to do it....but, it does work better after I fixed it and cleaned the car up.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2011 : 10:41:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Diver
 

I'm thinking about eliminating the bow thru-hull and seacock....when I re-do the fresh water system, I my plumb a line from it to the head and use that as the water intake, installing the appropriate one way check valves and such.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You REALLY do NOT want to do that. You never want to mix head stuff with fresh water and a check valve will do nothing to inhibit the spread of bad stuff into good stuff. Believe me. You are also hurting your new head pump by not using the seawater intake. You might want to spend some time reading Peggie Hall, The Headmistress, here on co.com: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/forumdisplay.php?f=31 If you're not clear on this, just ask her.

Your updates on this topic have been fantastic, reminds me of our initial sailing adventures on our C22 and C25. The first wind-and-wing is always exhilarating, ain't it?

All the best and keep 'em coming.

Stu

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2011 : 14:23:57

I keep a couple of gallon jugs of water mixed with some head deodorizer that I use for flush water. Keeps things fresher, negates the need to open and close the intake valve, and no "low tide" smell.

Edited by - dlucier on 09/18/2011 17:40:14

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2011 : 07:51:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ape-X
 Looks like your traveler may have a severe bend in the middle? OUr traveler is still at the stern, so results may differ: But I believe the traveler should be a continuous arc rather than shaped as a "v" Do you notice it stick at that point more than another? Try cleaning gently the car.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Perhaps but no problems using it.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2011 : 08:24:41

As we get back into cooler weather (thank God) I'll start up projects again on the boat. I'll probably leave the fresh water intake for the head as is. Since I replaced the head and plumbing for it, I decided it's fine the way it is....and since I'm in a lake, and the holding tank is treated, I don't really have sea water odor issues.

I haven't decided yet what I'll do with the fresh water system. That's a really big tank and all it feeds is the galley sink. All summer, the only thing I've used the sink for is to wash my hands and an occasional dish.

I could just get a smaller, say 10 gallon tank, put it under the quarter berth with a demand pump and accumulator tank (think, RV system)....then use that space under the starboard settee for storage.

Edited by - on

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