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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Moving the traveler forward

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OJ
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Initially Posted - 03/28/2011 : 14:50:00

Just spoke with one of the techs at Harken about moving the traveler forward - in front of the companionway. His first question was "you understand that you will sacrifice some hull speed?" I immediately realized that I would not be able to flatten the sail as well compared to sheeting off the aft end of the boom.

There's (for us anyway) a natural tendency for the helmsperson and sheeter to gravitate to the windward aft corner. There's also that occasional unintentional (surprise) gybe that can take hats and glasses along with it. Moving the traveler forward would eliminate and/or minimize these problems - but at what cost to speed?

Anyone else here grapple with this decision?

Edited by - OJ on 03/28/2011 14:51:44

JohnP
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Response Posted - 03/28/2011 : 18:26:30

I think if the mainsheet originally gives a 3:1 mechanical advantage and you replace that with a 6:1, at about half of the lever-arm at the forward position, then you would have the same resultant mechanical advantage on the boom and could trim the main exactly the same. A more powerful boom vang rig may be helpful to flatten the sail, also.

If the tightest angle of trim of the mains'l across the centerline is greater due to the traveler system being on the cabin top, then you can pinch somewhat more with the replacement rig. So you may achieve greater velocity-made-good when beating to windward with the traveler in the forward position.

Those are 2 possible advantages of moving the traveler forward. YMMV, literally.

However, if I moved my traveler I would lose the ability to raise the pop-top. That would be a deal-breaker for me.

By the way, the "hull speed" is a theoretical maximum for the boat that does not change with operation.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 03/28/2011 : 19:01:38

If you have a pop-top, then you do not want to install a traveler on the cabin top. If you want to move the traveler forward, you could place it across the companionway entrance between the cockpit seats as some here have done, or install a traveler bar across the seats at the front of the cockpit. In doing that, you will lose some seating room. If you do that, I would recommend putting a single block with becket on the end of the boom, start the main sheet there, run down to a single block on the stern traveler, back up to the boom end, forward to another single block on the boom above the new traveler, then down to the new traveler. That way, you keep the stern traveler and stay in compliance with class rules in case you decide to race the boat.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/28/2011 : 19:47:15

You can always leave the transom traveler in place to be able to be class-legal if you want.

Now, who am I to argue with a North Sails person... but a mid-boom traveler the width of your cockpit, placed against the bulkhead and companionway, has got to give you more sail shape control than the silly thing on the C-25 transom, which has very poor angular purchase to the end of the boom. In light air, traveler up, you can get a fuller sail, and in heavy air, traveler down, a flatter one. Did he see your boat, or is he familiar with the C-25?

It sounds like you'd like to get the mainsheet out of your "hair" (removing the decapitation threat), and I'll assume you have a pop-top, which makes a cabin-top system impractical. I'd vote for (and seriously considered) a seat-to-seat traveler against the bulkhead.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 04:22:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 
It sounds like you'd like to get the mainsheet out of your "hair" (removing the decapitation threat), and I'll assume you have a pop-top, which makes a cabin-top system impractical. I'd vote for (and seriously considered) a seat-to-seat traveler against the bulkhead.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Bingo!

Spoke with the sail maker yesteday evening and he sounded a little exasperated about the advice given by Harken, i.e., he disagreed. Yep, we have a poptop and the plan is to place the travler across the seats in front of the companionway.

Thanks for your input!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 08:12:12

Ya, I meant I disagreed with the Harken guy--not North. Furthermore, this could conceivably affect speed, but it has absolutely nothing to do with "hull speed".

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/29/2011 08:14:07

aeckhart
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Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 08:58:52

Twenty three years of dodging the main sheet while tacking is enough. I purchased a new Harken traveler system last fall to install across the seats.

Dodging the main sheet is only one aspect of our goofy traveler design. Last season I was single handing in a club race on Lake Superior and we found ourselves in unforcasted 40+ knot winds. In it's currrent location, even with a reefed main, the pressure on the main sheet made it extremely difficult to release the main sheet from the jaws of the traveler block. When it finally broke free it dragged my hand into the jaws giving me a very painful pinch.

In my opinion, moving the traveler forward would allow a much better purchase angle on the traveler block to release the main, and allow you to keep your hands away from the block as the sheet races through the jaws.

If there is a speed advantage to moving the traveler foward then I welcome it. From a racing standpoint though, it is much easier to helm the boat (also a speed issue) when a crew-person can sheet the main forward. When single handing, tacking the jib becomes a little easier also because you don't have to worry about the main sheet tail getting wrapped around your feet and of course, the tackle taking your head off.

Edited by - on

cat25
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Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 10:00:48

In the tech specs somone posted the traveler moved over the cabin top. The boat has a pop top. The traveler is attached past the pop top on both sides .It is attached with pins and removeable. Check cat 25 tech specs Ken

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 10:48:03

If you do install a traveler next to the bulkhead for mid-boom sheeting and keep a single block there for the stern traveler connection, I would recommend installing a double block mid-boom and use the fiddle block with cam on the new traveler. In 40 kt. winds you will need the extra purchase.

Edited by - dmpilc on 03/29/2011 10:48:59

PCP777
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Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 12:46:34

I have my traveler on the cabin top as mine is not a pop top and it seems to work very well, it's just like the C-27 set up. Easy to adjust. Only complaint? Sometimes it's a but difficult to shake loose the main sheet from back at the helm.

Edited by - PCP777 on 03/29/2011 13:00:54

OJ
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Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 13:56:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 If you do install a traveler next to the bulkhead for mid-boom sheeting and keep a single block there for the stern traveler connection, I would recommend installing a double block mid-boom and use the fiddle block with cam on the new traveler. In 40 kt. winds you will need the extra purchase.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Thanks for the input David - I've been toying with a double block or two single blocks.

I can't picture what you are saying with "keep a single block there for the stern traveler connection."

Edited by - OJ on 03/29/2011 14:03:00

OJ
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Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 14:01:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by PCP777

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Thanks for sharing Peter. Unfortunately in this application I do have a pop-top. A pair of new risers from Harken are more than $600 - without the traveler, car, etc!!!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 15:29:17

You might also want to consider adding a "part" or two to your mainsheet tackle. By sheeting to the mid-boom, you're reducing the leverage against the sail (although the angle is better). So the pull Al talks about will probably be stronger with the same tackle. You can go with your current tackle and see how it feels.

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 19:01:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cat25
 In the tech specs somone posted the traveler moved over the cabin top. The boat has a pop top. The traveler is attached past the pop top on both sides .It is attached with pins and removeable. Check cat 25 tech specs Ken
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I was wondering why this couldn't be done. Seems like you could through bolt the end plates? to the sides of the doghouse and as mentioned use quick release pins to un-pin it when using the pop top.

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aeckhart
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Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 06:34:33

Removable or not, I would think that a taveler mounted over the companionway would be a real hassel entering and leaving the cabin under nomal operation. Sheet adjustments for single handing would also be a problem unless of course you have an autopilot. There may be times, as I've related above, that an autopilot will simply not work and the main must be spilled quickly. The seat-mounted traveler is therefore best for all-round use.

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cshaw
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Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 09:39:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aeckhart
 Removable or not, I would think that a taveler mounted over the companionway would be a real hassel entering and leaving the cabin under nomal operation. Sheet adjustments for single handing would also be a problem unless of course you have an autopilot. There may be times, as I've related above, that an autopilot will simply not work and the main must be spilled quickly. The seat-mounted traveler is therefore best for all-round use.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
As with most things, rigging our boats is a very personal preferences thing for most options. A long time ago I wanted to go to mid-boom sheeting (we race a lot, and I like the midboom traveller, I also like the bimini being able to go further aft.) I was also concerned about the pop-top (so obviously no sailing with the pop-top up, or even at anchor without securing it and the boom), and whether it would complicate/reduce companionway access since I am 6'1".

So, I rigged a 2x4 on some blocks to locate it where the midboom traveller would be, and went sailing. It was a mixed bag. I liked the the fact the traveller provided another handrail to grab going in and out, but the main sheet was too far from me when the cockpit would have non-sailor guests aboard while sailing (we do that a lot), and I found I was too tall for it for companionway access without danger of hitting my head if the boat was moving around in bumpy water. So, I stayed with aft sheeting.

I also looked at mounting the traveller on the seats at the forward end of the cockpit, but it blocked the companionway too much for my taste.

So, if you are thinking of going to mid-boom sheeting but are still not sure, maybe kludging up a mockup might help you envision what its like.

Cheers!

Chuck

Edited by - cshaw on 03/31/2011 09:40:50

WesAllen
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Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 10:12:36

If you have a loose foot main would this put extra strain on the middle of the boom?

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cshaw
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Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 12:54:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by WesAllen
 If you have a loose foot main would this put extra strain on the middle of the boom?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think the mid boom loading is greater no matter whether the sail is loosefooted or not when you use midboom sheeting. My rationale is simple, there is not much in the way of vertical loading along the foot of most mains, especially shelf footed mains as compared to the leech loads at the clew that the sail generates. If you ARE carrying a lot of vertical loading along the foot back up into the sail, you obviously cannot have a lot of draft in the sail down low, and most sails I see try to carry the draft down to the foot area.

I built my main loose footed by the way, with the drafy carried really low into the foot roach, and it really improved the boat's performance. (But I also use end boom sheeting)

Chuck

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 13:13:48

Another thing, Chuck... If you rigged mid-boom sheeting and raced with it, to be "legit", you'd need to report it to the PHRF committee and probably give up some seconds.

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cshaw
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Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 16:37:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Another thing, Chuck... If you rigged mid-boom sheeting and raced with it, to be "legit", you'd need to report it to the PHRF committee and probably give up some seconds.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Another good point to stay "stock"! I need all the rating help I can get!!!!! :-)

Chuck

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