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"Never Approach a Dock...

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PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2011 : 09:06:15

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2011 : 09:13:16

It's my best friend! I blow at anything even remotely close. I blow when leaving the dock and when coming back. Helps everyone gather to watch the approach anyway! Ok, it has a downside - gawkers....

sten

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2011 : 09:13:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by PCP777
 I should clarify, this shouldn't have been a close call at all...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">OK, I will clarify... It shouldn't have been a collision, and the fact that it was says you did not follow the rules, which start with: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Your circumstance was a marina where you had no room to maneuver, and sails that prevented you from stopping. The latter was by choice.

The rules then go on to say: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">And then: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If necessary to avoid collision or allow more time to asses the situation, a vessel may slacken her speed or take all way off by stopping or reversing her means of propulsion.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">And finally (for purposes of this discussion): <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The rules also specify sound signals for these purposes--yelling is not one of them.

If a case like this ends up in an Admiralty Court, both parties are assessed blame--one (she) more than the other (you), but both.

Edited by - on

calden
Navigator

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USA
194 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2011 : 09:14:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 It's amazing that most of those collisions happened in clear visibility, and some of those were professional skippers of big vessels, and you have to wonder how they could have collided, if anyone on either vessel was looking.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You wonder how it can happen until you are the skipper. (Raises hand sheepishly...

)

I was out sailing one fine day last late summer, just me and my wife, enjoying an especially perfect and almost windless day. I was drifting along at maybe 3 knots with the genoa, in our very large (148 sq. miles) inland mountain lake, way out in the middle. No one else around. My wife was reading a book, and I was lying on the seat, sleepily steering with my barefoot toe.

I looked up and around the genoa JUST in time to see that I was three boat lengths away from the Navy power generator barge, an anchored raft something like 12'x12' big, out in the middle of this lake, literally miles from nothing else. I noted in a mile back when I came around the point - a tiny little speck way out there - and didn't give it another thought as it was hidden behind the genoa.

We had a good laugh at my navigation skills (???) but the point was made. Other boats, as well as rocks and trees and sandbars and such, can come up much faster than you'd anticipate. I can only think what kind of hot liquid I would be boiling in were I to hit a military installation "by accident."

Carlos

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2011 : 09:18:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by PCP777
 I should clarify, this shouldn't have been a close call at all...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">OK, I will clarify... It shouldn't have been a collision, and the fact that it was says you did not follow the rules, which start with: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Your circumstance was a marina where you had no room to maneuver, and sails that prevented you from stopping. The latter was by choice.

The rules then go on to say: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">And then: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If necessary to avoid collision or allow more time to asses the situation, a vessel may slacken her speed or take all way off by stopping or reversing her means of propulsion.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">And finally (for purposes of this discussion): <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The rules also specify sound signals for these purposes--yelling is not one of them.

If a case like this ends up in an Admiralty Court, both parties are assessed blame--one (she) more than the other (you), but both.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah, they will give you your Captains Ticket!

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2011 : 09:52:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by PCP777
 I should clarify, this shouldn't have been a close call at all...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">OK, I will clarify... It shouldn't have been a collision, and the fact that it was says you did not follow the rules, which start with: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Your circumstance was a marina where you had no room to maneuver, and sails that prevented you from stopping. The latter was by choice.

The rules then go on to say: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">And then: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If necessary to avoid collision or allow more time to asses the situation, a vessel may slacken her speed or take all way off by stopping or reversing her means of propulsion.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">And finally (for purposes of this discussion): <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The rules also specify sound signals for these purposes--yelling is not one of them.

If a case like this ends up in an Admiralty Court, both parties are assessed blame--one (she) more than the other (you), but both.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah, they will give you your Captains Ticket!

Harsh, but so true. Amazingly enough folks sometimes brag about their abilities to sail right up to the dock... Uh huh, you should know how to do it, I s'pose - better idea - anchor off and sort out the motor issue and/or call for a tow. Marinas are tight quarters and if you are gonna sail around in one - blow a lot of horns.

sten
curmudgeon in training...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Meh, the wind comes from the south and the exit to the fairway goes north, I might have been doing maybe a knot at the time going downwind very slowly. The fairway is well protected from southerly wind and the water is like glass. I don't feel like it's unsafe to sail out nor do I feel that I could have avoided this idiot even if I'd had the engine on. Next time though, I will use the horn. It would have been so easy for her to avoid us that I think everyone on board was very surprised that she hit us. Bottom line is the operator of the power boat was at fault for the collision. It was a learning experience.

As an aside, I never sail in unless I have an engine failure.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2011 : 10:51:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by PCP777
 ...Bottom line is the operator of the power boat was at fault for the collision.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Bottom-bottom line is if two vessels within visual contact, both under way, collide, most likely both will be found to be at fault. Both are independently responsible for signalling and for avoiding. Some Coast Guardsmen found that out a couple of years ago near Block Island when their own tugboat and a ferry "kissed" each other--ending the careers of both captains, one a career Coastie who was about to be promoted to skipper a cutter. I recall it was his last day on the tug prior to the ceremony to turn her over to the new captain.

Maritime law doesn't work like highway ordinances... although I recall a legal principle in Illinois when I lived there: On the road, regardless of who caused a dangerous situation (such as running a stop sign), the driver who had the "last clear chance" to avoid a collision could be found partially at fault. That principle was probably intended to encourage defensive driving. I haven't been aware of it in other states.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2011 : 12:25:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by PCP777
 ...Bottom line is the operator of the power boat was at fault for the collision.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Bottom-bottom line is if two vessels within visual contact, both under way, collide, most likely both will be found to be at fault. Both are independently responsible for signalling and for avoiding. Some Coast Guardsmen found that out a couple of years ago near Block Island when their own tugboat and a ferry "kissed" each other--ending the careers of both captains, one a career Coastie who was about to be promoted to skipper a cutter. I recall it was his last day on the tug prior to the ceremony to turn her over to the new captain.

Maritime law doesn't work like highway ordinances... although I recall a legal principle in Illinois when I lived there: On the road, regardless of who caused a dangerous situation (such as running a stop sign), the driver who had the "last clear chance" to avoid a collision could be found partially at fault. That principle was probably intended to encourage defensive driving. I haven't been aware of it in other states.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Right, I didn't file any type of claim as the damage was minimal in this slow speed accident. I did call 911 once I cleared the harbor as I strongly suspect, based on her behavior, that she was very intoxicated. I really hope they got her off the lake.

One thing that bears mentioning is that our fairway is 100% sailboats, it's really not that unusual to see people sailing out. Seems like a waste to have the motor running once you're out of your slip and you can just unroll your head sail and run down wind. On my friend's C-27 he never even drops the engine, he pulls the boat out by hand on the finger while I keep helm to midships and then once he has it backed out, he pushes the nose out and then I steer to starboard and unroll the head sail as we pick up the wind from the south. Remember, we don't have tides or currents to deal with in our lake.

Edited by - PCP777 on 04/08/2011 12:34:07

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2011 : 13:21:18

COLREGS RULE 9: b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.
Several power boats transiting at the same time had greater freedom. I was a certainly motor vessel at the time, and we were both confined to the channel; I believe that as he crossed port to starboard that he was obligated to not impede me. I was, of course, obligated to not crash into him if I could avoid it.

Edited by - on

bm1981
Deckhand

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8 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2011 : 14:56:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[ I've found that rec boaters mostly think a horn signal is just "honking at them" (like in Manhattan), and don't take it as intended. And on the Mystic River here, there'd be a lot of noise (like in Manhattan)!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Here in Jersey, one toot gets you one finger

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2011 : 05:32:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bm1981
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[ I've found that rec boaters mostly think a horn signal is just "honking at them" (like in Manhattan), and don't take it as intended. And on the Mystic River here, there'd be a lot of noise (like in Manhattan)!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Here in Jersey, one toot gets you one finger
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Just one more reason to create some sort of minimalistic but mandatory vessel training that incorporates stuff like what the different signals are.

And if you give me one toot with the wrong application, it will get you a finger and probably five blasts.

One blast = I intend to pass you on my port side.
Two blasts = I intend to pass you on my starboard side.
Three blasts = I am in reverse.
Five blasts = Danger.

Either vessel can be the first to initiate a horn blast and if the other vessel is in agreement, they blast in kind. If not, the other vessel would blast five to signify danger.

Class dismissed...

sten

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2011 : 11:06:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 One blast = I intend to pass you on my port side.
Two blasts = I intend to pass you on my starboard side.
Three blasts = I am in reverse.
Five blasts = Danger.

Either vessel can be the first to initiate a horn blast and if the other vessel is in agreement, they blast in kind. If not, the other vessel would blast five to signify danger.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...and one finger = I don't know or give a $#!+ about the COLREGS, so go... (you know the rest.) Conforms to NJ highway etiquette standards.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2011 : 11:21:36

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/09/2011 11:22:47

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2011 : 15:11:28

Took a pic all the way from the back end of my fairway from the pump out station. Once you get past the 11 meter that is sticking way out there it's pretty easy to navigate. My boat is about 15 yards north on the port side. Where you see the wind line at the fairway exit is about where the collision happened as I turned to starboard to head towards the exit of the harbor. Conditions shown are pretty much what we had on the day it happened. As an aside, went sailing on this evening and it was wonderful. Tomorrow I fly to San Fransisco so no sailing this week.

Edited by - PCP777 on 04/10/2011 15:12:13

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2011 : 18:21:28

Yup--under sail you have no options, and down-wind, no way to slow down much less stop, even at two knots. I guess we can't talk you out of it. Proceed at your own risk, but forget about telling me it's somebody else's fault.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/10/2011 18:25:17

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