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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Keel Damage discovered

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treeder65
1st Mate

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USA
50 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/10/2011 : 19:42:11

I have had my 1986 C25 for a year and a half and am finally getting started on the project list before the season starts. I can't really call it an overhaul since it is in good shape. It just needs some major cleaning, painting and varnishing.

This weekend was replacing all of the plumbing hoses. Trident 102 sanitation hose sure isn't the easiest to work with. Replacing the bilge pump, removed both holding tanks. The PO left me with a full one so getting all of the odor out of the boat hasn't been easy. After removing the cushions, filling the sole/liner with water and many gallons of bleach, then pressure washing it, the smell subsided somewhat. Some of the things that floated up into the bilge were less than appetizing to say the least. Removed all the hoses, a little more. Finally today I found another culprit: the curtains. Tried washing them, but still bad. My wife says she'll make new ones and replace the cushion zippers if we can clean them well enough; it would only cost me a sewing machine. No problem. $1900??? I got duped. Anyway, I have posted some pics and have a long list of questions. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

1.Pics of keel and Bilge forward keel area. I got a good price in the boat, so I didn't have it surveyed. After stripping the keel and cleaning the bilge, I noticed some repair and a crack in the forward bilge. Looks like it went hard aground at some point. I plan on getting a survey this week.

2.Has anyone used Cetol Natural on the interior woodwork (paneling)? If so, did the wall paneling have to be prepped in any way? I'm thinking that if the odor permeated the wood also, the Cetol will help encapsulate it. I'd also prefer the smell of Cetol to the hoding tank odor.

3. Do these look like normal blisters? Everyone always discusses dime and quarter sized blisters. These are pretty small.

4. When I pulled out the drawers, I found that some of the boxes that hold the drawers wee in rough shape. Easy to build, but does anyone have suggestions on wood, paint, primer? I was thinking that pressure treated might be best because of the moisture resistance.

5. Having a wheel is nice, but it takes up a lot of cockpit space. There is a cover back toward the transom that looks like an old pedestal base or tiller receptor. Looked underneath and it is just a hole. I'm thinking of moving the pedestal back to this location or close to it. The helmsman doesn't need a lot of space. It would be a lot better. The only drawback I can see is the motor controls might need to be moved also.

Well, I won't take up any more space here if there is any left at all. Sorry for the long post, but I had a busy weekend and all these things came up.

Still working on a name. Rocinante (Con Quixote's horse BTW)is the PO's.

Thanks for taking the time to check this out. I'm looking forward to many years with this boat and on this site. Everyone here is so helpful and friendly. Great group.

Tom
1986 C25 SR/FK #5299
Hunterdon County, NJ

Edited by - treeder65 on 04/18/2011 19:20:31

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2011 : 20:08:40

Did the waste tank rupture or something? How did all the waste spill out?

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 03:48:02

I think you have found the right place for this project!
If you are going to replace wood in the cabin that is not really visible, like the draw carcus'. I would use Marin Ply and Solid lumber (Red oak) as Teak would cost a fortune

Let us know how the survey of the keel goes, at least you can see most of the exterior around the keel that would normally be painted.

I would not move the wheel and binnicle. Besides, you have quite a bit of work to do to get the boat in the water if you wish to sail her this season.

Where's the mast and standing rigging? What shape is that in?

Eliminating the smells is a major step in getting the boat habitable, but seaworthyness is really important.

Your pics help enormously, don't worry about long posts when the provide so much info. You might start new topics for particular mini-projects to get faster responses.

She'll be a beautiful boat when you get done I'm sure.

Paul

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 04:23:02

I have used Cetol on exterior wood but on the interior, I found that Howard's Restore-A-Finish worked out fine and is easier to apply by just wiping on with a rag. Howard also makes a Feed-N- Wax that also is applied with a rag and can be applied after the first product is used to sort of maintain the finish longer. I have only put the Howard products on 1 or 2 times in the last 5 years and interior wood surfaces look fine. When it is time to reapply, you do just that. As far as the blisters go, you seem to have a lot of them but they are very small. It is hard to tell from the photo but is it possible they are paint blisters ? If paint blisters then it is a non-issue. If they truly are blisters through the gel coat...are they only in this one area ? If in this one area, I would read up on blisters and their fix. You may get away with just repairing this one area. Basically, the blisters are opened up and it allows any water to seep out. Then you will have to build up the area removed and then recommend apply a barrier paint to waterproof that area. If you have a lot of these small blisters in various areas on the bottom, then probably best to remove all anti-fouling paint and have the whole bottom treated appropriately by a professional or yourself but it will be a more time consuming job and ...well spring is upon us and since...you spent $1900 on a sewing machine...well then what's another couple of thousand to have someone do the work for you. Hopefully, the blisters are only in this one area and they may have been the way they look right now for many yyears and not have grwon that much or spread out that much. That's why, if only in thos one area, I would then work only that one area which is a much less intensive effort. Then next time you take boat out of the water, you can assess if any addl areas blisters have formed. if more blisters formed, then you are best off waterproofing the entire bottom. rcmd search archives on this subject sine I know this has been discussed before and some have referenced good sources of information.

In my case, I had about 20-25 blisters or so of which perhaps 8-10 turned out to be paint blisters. I had a few of the remaining blisters opened up and treated individually by the marina when boat was out for anti-fouling painting. I still have at least 10 dime to quarter-size blisters and every time I have the boat out for a pressure wash, I have been keeping an eye on them but no more have appeared and the ones that are there have not grown. I am due for another anti-fouling paint job this Fall (I use a multi-year ablative/copolymer paint). Last time bottom painted was 4 1/2 years ago.

Edited by - on

Tomas Kruska
Admiral

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Czech Republic
522 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 12:30:37

Hi Treeder,

Nice to see someone else with the inboard diesel :-) I suppose its the universal diesel and was not added in the factory right?

From the pictures I can se a lot of work, especialy the keel area. It seems its developing the classical "smile" where the keel si getting separated from the hull due to rotten plywood core in the bilge.
If you have the stainless steel rods you are still able to tight the bolts. Otherwise you will have to add some "sister" bolts next to the original one.

If I can tell any advice here, do not try to repaint the boat. Gelcoat is the best thing you could have. Polishing is easy.
I have my boat overpainted by PO, but there are some places where its peeling off and you cannot polish it (polyurethane paint is not polishable).

Can you please post some more pictures of the motor wood cover? I'm trying to rebuild my and I need some inspiration first

Good luck.

Edited by - on

treeder65
1st Mate

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USA
50 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 13:45:40

Joe, I'm not sure if it was spilled all over or if the lines were so permeated that it just got into everything. Reminds me of growing up in a smokers household. It was in the carpets, paint, everything. Although I don't see any signs of water damage and the engine runs smoothly, the thought did cross my mind that the PO may have sunk it, especially after uncovering that keel patch.

Good point Paul about moving the wheel; I always bite off way more than I can chew. I've decided I'll have to put off the polishing the gelcoat until next year. I'm not sure if I should use Polyglow in the meantime. It sounds like it might be some trouble to remove when I get around to polishing. Does Polyglow take care of oxidation like I have on the lower boot stripe? The mast and rigging seem in good shape. I have to install a new steaming light though; I haven't looked at the wiring yet. I put them in my shop for a few weeks so I could move around the deck and cabin easier. Big difference having the pop top open.
I've been reading about the blisters quite a bit. I bought the West System 105 and some high density filler to get as much filled as possible before I paint the bottom. I figured on VC-17 since I'll be trailering and launching quite a bit. I'll be doing it myself though. Unless I unknowingly have won the lottery, this thing is all blood and sweat. And the boss will have to settle for a used sewing machine. I was shocked at how much those things an cost though. At the price CD wants for the replacement cushions, it would pay for itself if she's really willing to make us new ones. I'll take the vinyl off the old ones. It's pretty inspiring to look at the "Not Yet!" interior under Tech Tips. Nice looking cushions and table.

Tomas, are you talking about the sides of the engine area; the ones adjacent to the starboard berth and the lazerette? I'll get some photos in a few days.

Thanks for all the great info.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 14:06:06

My favorite [url="http://www.yachtworld.com/sealake/sealake_10.html"]article about fiberglass blisters[/url].

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 14:52:25

The pigments in Cetol are there for UV protection, which is good where it's needed... but they muddy up the wood in a way I wouldn't choose in the interior. Howard's, oil, polyurethane, or varnish should look nicer, and won't be exposed to the elements that can make maintaining things like varnish a nightmare. I used tongue oil below in my current boat for a warm, satin finish that really shows off the teak. I'm going with Cetol Marine on the exterior.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 18:24:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 I used tongue oil below in my current boat for a warm, satin finish that really shows off the teak.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Tongue oil? What do ya do, Dave, lick the wood?

Edited by - dlucier on 04/11/2011 18:25:05

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 18:37:14

Good one Don... Sorry... "tung oil". My fingers got away from me.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/11/2011 18:56:21

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5378 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 19:29:17

Poliglow - it will not eliminate or reduce the appearance of oxydation, it will preserve it forever.

Your best bet is to clean the gel coat, scrub the oxydation down until its gone (you can try: Mr Clean Magic Eraser, Wiemann's Fibreglass cleaner, Comet cleanser or trisodium phosphate cleaners to remove the oxydation. West Marine also has a good oxydation remover.)

Once the surface is clear, wash thoroughly with clean water, wipe it down with poliprep, then with acetone, then with a clean, dry cotton rag, then apply the Poliglow.

It is actually true what they say: whatever marks, blemishes, streaks or discoloration are on the hull when you apply Poliglow, they are sure to be preserved for years to come!

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 20:46:26

I caution about using cetol inside, as have others. Lemon oil, teak oil or the other ideas are much much better. This is coming from me, a skipper who only likes varnish inside on wooden boats over 95 feet long!

I'd leave the wheel where it is, looks just like mine!

Get to learn to bleed your engine, and find out everything you can about it. Diesels are very reliable if serviced properly. I put off moving to our C34 because the outboard on our C25 was easy to service. So, I learned how to do diesels, too. www.marinedieseldirect.com.

Nice, nice boat you have.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 21:04:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 Your best bet is to clean the gel coat, scrub the oxydation down until its gone (you can try: Mr Clean Magic Eraser, Wiemann's Fibreglass cleaner, Comet cleanser or trisodium phosphate cleaners to remove the oxydation. West Marine also has a good oxydation remover.)

Once the surface is clear, wash thoroughly with clean water, wipe it down with poliprep, then with acetone, then with a clean, dry cotton rag, then apply the Poliglow.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Bruce, I think you're exaggerating... Poly Prep with a Scotchbright pad should do the whole job of removing marks and oxidation adequately for the Poly Glow application--it's pretty strong stuff. (Rubber gloves are recommended.) Yes, you want to get the marks off, and you want a uniform color (or white) before you apply PG, but it doesn't have to be shiny.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 21:21:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stu Jackson C34
 ...Diesels are very reliable if serviced properly...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The biggest issue I've heard from numerous diesel boat owners, particularly with somewhat older boats, is algae growth in the fuel tank. After a while, it dies and forms sludge in the tank, which gets stirred up when the boat is pounding through a seaway, clogging the fuel filter and stalling the engine at the most inopportune time. Look into algaecides for your fuel, carry spare filters, and learn how to change them and bleed the system in the dark with one hand tied behind your back--that might simulate the conditions where you'll actually need to do it.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/11/2011 21:37:00

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 21:36:22

Rocinante... Kinda cool, but Spanish for "worn out nag". Don Quixote aside, maybe she's due for an upgrade. Just be sure to perform the [url="http://www.48north.com/mr_offline/denaming.htm"]denaming and renaming ceremony[/url] to appease Poseidon, who is very sensitive about these things.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2011 : 04:11:14

I agree with Dave regarding the use of Poly Prep. It is great for removing oxidation !

What I have settled into now having used Poly Glow on the hull for past 5 1/2 years (and boat is in the water all year-round) is that Iapply it only once a year. When starting off no matter what you are going to use on the hull, all oxidation, stains, etc need to be removed. In the case of going with POly Glow, well it is easy enoughto apply the coatings and believe I put on 5-6 coats initially which is the recommendation. I then re-applied 2 coats semi-annually but I then found that once a year was enough. I basically wash the boat and then any black streaks, I I use black streak cleaner to get them off. If any areas look scuffed or have anything that deters from the surface shiny clean finish, then an oxidation cleaner is spot used. I have used 3m, etc sometimes but to really remove anything from the surface, the POly Prep is the best. It basically will remove part or all of the past coatings where as with other oxidation cleaners, they will do the same but you have to work harder to get things off. After spot using of the Poly Prep and in some years, I have not had much to remove at all since the boat wash and the black streak cleaner removed most contaminants. Perhaps the only area I have had to treat with an oxidation cleaner is where the fenders scuff the hull side in a 2 foot area. Sometimes a bit more or if I get a little carried away, I will do a much larger area since it is not that hard to apply and remove past coatings. Then I re-apply 2 coats of Poly Glow. The application of the Poly Glow is basically sliding my butt along the finger slip and using an applicator doing 2 foot swaths at a time ensuring no drips. Takes about 10 minutes for one hull side application and it dries in just a couple of minutes before starting the second application.

While I like using Poly Glow on the hull exterior, I like to use pure wax in the cockpit area. If I keep after it, wash it regularly, I can get away with just re-applying the pure wax every 2 months without using an oxidation cleaner. But the key is not letting too much time go by or then I would have some serious oxidation cleaning to contend with but so far have avoided.

Edited by - on

treeder65
1st Mate

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USA
50 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2011 : 18:49:25

I just finished sanding down the keel to see if there were any more spots that indicate a major repair. By the color and the ease of sanding it, it appears that the PO used Bondo or something similar on the sides of the keel. There are areas that have an epoxy/fiberglass patch, but the main portion of the sides seems to be autobody filler. Anybody ever heard of that? At first I thought I had some really thick gelcoat. I did sand up to the hull bottom in some areas to see if there was a line where it met the gelcoat, but I couldn't find one. I definitely have to get a surveyor in this week, but am posting these pic to see if anyone can come up with any thoughts on it. It was definitely weeping at the smile; somewhat damp. It has been out of the water though for at least 16 months, so I'm not sure if that would be from cleaning the bilge and sole liner. Hopefully it won't be anything too bad so I can be sailing by May. We'll see. Someone might have enough knowledge on the keel design to know what was done based on some of the pics, especially at the smile, but I am not familiar with the keel design enough. The bolts are stainless but I haven't checked yet to see if they are tight enough. What is below the bolts to strengthen the hull enough to hold the keel (and keep the bolts from pulling through)?

Yes, I am lucky enough to be married to a woman that let's me strip and paint the boat before the house.

Edited by - treeder65 on 04/19/2011 02:06:10

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2011 : 20:48:40

My C-25 keel was lead encapsulated with a fairly thick layer of fibrous material. I suspect the purpose was to reproduce the shape of the original cast iron keel over the denser lead. That might be the "Bondo" you're finding.

I never saw weeping at the stub (the "smile")--that could be rain water from the bilge and some rot in the purported wood base of the stub. Since you have stainless bolts and nuts, you could try tightening them a little--that might work best with the boat on the trailer, supported by the keel. If you're still concerned about that joint, you could get a surveyor to check the stub with a moisture meter, which would detect water in the wood. He also could probably detect the kind of damage that might have been done, but I doubt it's a significant problem.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/18/2011 20:49:53

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2011 : 09:04:32

Even my swing keel had a lot of bondo applied to it. There seemed to be a divit in the shape of a circle that had been filled/faired. I wondered if that was the opening where molten iron was poured into the mold. Seemed like a pretty crudely formed piece of metal. Perhaps lead is easier to work with.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2011 : 16:53:46

Kent Nelson is an engineer for the 25' range at Catalina Yachts in Woodland Hills, CA. He would be able to answer your more technical questions.

kent@catalinayachts.com

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2011 : 18:15:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 Even my swing keel had a lot of bondo applied to it. There seemed to be a divit in the shape of a circle that had been filled/faired. I wondered if that was the opening where molten iron was poured into the mold. Seemed like a pretty crudely formed piece of metal. Perhaps lead is easier to work with.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Confetti has a lead keel, and has some rather large (relatively speaking) voids in the casting that were poorly filled with some sort of bondo like stuff. They end up weeping like crazy during haulouts no matter how well I try to dry them out and fill them. After almost 35 years of this I have learned to not worry too much about it!!! I had stainless keel bolts sister'd with the original steel bolts about 10 years ago however (just in case!!)

Chuck

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