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sailing through ice?

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/06/2002 : 12:39:39

A question for those of you that sail in northern climes. I'm thinking of leaving the boat in longer than usual but I'm concerned about sailing through sheet ice. I know to remove the speedo wheel lest the ice damage it, but I'm wondering what effect ice will have on bottom paint and more particularly on the bottom. Have any of the group had experience with the ill effect of ice on the hull?

I was supposed to haul Thursday but ya'll know what Thursday deposited in the nor'east. The boat had several feet of snow all over it, and after snow plowing for several hours today , thought I'd better pass on a sail if it meant shoveling snow on the boat as well. But tomorrow is another story, to go or no go.

Val on "CALISTA" # 3936

Val Bisagni

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2002 : 15:24:39

Sounds like wishfull thinking. If you want to play it safe get the boat out of the water before the snow melts and re freezes pluging the cockpit drains. To much snow and Ice will sink her. Better safe than sorry.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

Edited by - on

albert
Captain

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USA
262 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2002 : 18:09:31

Pack your boat and ship to Florida Keys!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

I took this last winter off of Key Largo Florida--notice all the snow and ice. The trade off is that we never get a White Christmas. At least you get picture postcard holidays!

<img src="http://www.comhertz.com/abacus/sunset1.jpg" border=0>

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
<i>Abacus'</i>: http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

Edited by - albert on 12/06/2002 18:11:50

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2002 : 19:02:40

<b>"Have any of the group had experience with the ill effect of ice on the hull?"</b>

Yeah,...the crew of the Titanic!

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
On the hard near Lake Erie

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ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2002 : 20:18:48

Sheet ice has sunk many a vessel. It will cut right through wood and will severely damage fiberglass under the right (wrong?) conditions, NO KIDDING! I suggest mulled rum before the fire when the ice is in the water, godspeed, ron srsk 1981 Orion #2343 SW FLA, Where there is NO ice.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2002 : 21:19:14

So how would you know, Ron? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> I've watched a 18-19' fiberglass runabout running about breaking up ice under 1" thick around the marina outside of my office. He had to get some speed (8-10 knots) and would ride up on the sheets from time to time, breaking through, then turning around and going at it again. I could see a slow-moving, heavy hull gradually coming to a stop, waiting for the ice to get thick enough for the skipper to walk away, and then spending the winter there until the ice let go so it could sink. <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

You have a couple of "warm" days ahead, Val--I'd use them to get her out.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2002 : 08:50:02

Val,

When we bought osmepneo we looked at a boat out on Orient Point that had been in the water like Patrick's, like for 4 years. I didn't have it surveyed so I can't tell you whether there was any ice damage or not.

I've known people who have kept boats in the water for the winter in climes that freeze and have used a devise that makes bubbles around the boat which keeps ice from forming around the boat.

When we lived in Brooklyn I don't recall the waters around the city freezing, nor much along the shore, but our three years had relatively mild winters.

All that said, I don't think I want to keep my boat in the water anywhere in the northern climes!

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2002 : 11:30:34

Icebreakers,like your runaboat, are designed to ride up on the ice and then break it to make a passage in rather thick ice, and are VERY heavily reinforced forward. Old sailing vessels used to ship what were called "bow graces" of heavy wood to push aside ice without damage to the hull. I repeat, from about forty years experience sailing in the North before coming South, certain levels of thin sheet ice will cut a hull just like a knife, a fact well known to fishermen along the Northern coasts. Maine lobsterboats when built of wood often had protective sheathing at the bow for winter operation, and were careful as to the conditions they operated in; I owned one (not as a fisherman) and it was so reinforced. I have no idea what, if anything, Great Lakers did, having had no experience of winter there. Godspeed, fair winds, ron srsk Orion #2343 1981, SW FL

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Mark Loyacano
Navigator

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USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2002 : 20:56:12

Val,
Some folks in Kansas leave boats in all year. The lake freezes up too. Those who use bubblers have no problem. They come out during the winter, turn on their little quartz heaters, cook a pot of chile or soup and read books, visit or just putter around the marina and inside their boats.
I imagine you have the time to stop by often enough to sweep the snow off and keep a small tarp over the cockpit so it won't fill up with snow.
Just be careful not to slip and fall on the slick snowy deck or eat too much chile at once.
I have just returned from Goose Bay, Labrador ... now they have a Winter freeze problem worth second thoughts.
Regards,
Mark L.

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2002 : 09:06:38

Ya'll,

Thanks for the contributions...yesterday I finally got up the courage to climb aboard and shovel the cockpit...with hatchboards no less... so this is winter sailing,YUCK!.

But the real crazies hereabout were the racing team of the Gaviayacht group(www.gaviayachts.com) gathered at the Bellport dock. Gavia manufactures the Norlin Mark III. Always wanted one of these but after yesterday I'm having second thoughts. The Norlin is a 1/3 scale 12 meter sloop. They look unbelievably beautiful on their trailer but tend to dissapear when in the water. This is the boat featured in Seaworthy(I think) written by the skipper who survived the sinking of his sloop (no boyancy)in very deep water,his pfd,being used as a seat cushion, went down with the boat. Thankfully he survived the ordeal.

Great across the wind and a bullet up wind, had to wipe my eyes to be sure of the winds direction. It seemed to be doing the impossible.

Try about 10" of freeboard in 25 knots wind with 1' to 2' chop,ouch!

Val on "CALISTA" # 3936

Val Bisagni

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PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2002 : 14:56:19

Sheet ice will slice right into a wood boat as has been mentioned. It could get fiberglass too. It's OK to leave the boat in the ice, but don't move it around. I had this situation in a Northern Washington slough with a wooden hull. Around there the ice never lasted too long at any one time.

Paul
C25FK Sparky

PZ
KFS/KLB/KOK/WNU/KPH/WCC

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2002 : 10:04:00

We had one of our yacht club members leave a Venture 22 in the ice over the winter two years ago. It was the talk of the town. Things were fine until about mid January when the stern was noted being pulled under the ice. By Spring there wasn't any free board left showing and, as the boat moved around with the slowly melting ice sheet, the hull cracked. Fortunately the ice kept it afloat until it was washed ashore. The real problem arose when the Coast Guard became aware of the situation. They were concerned about any possible oil/gas spill from the outboard motor. You DON'T want to get on the wrong side of the Coast Guard, particularly when it comes to marine spills.

Anyway, the moral of the story is, get your boat out before the ice forms and you can't get it out until spring.

Al
GALLIVANT 5801

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2002 : 11:12:24

Get a bubbler val and you won't have any problem....I thought you sailed on Saltwater anyway???

http://www.boatus-store.com/browse/item.asp?IID=42980

There are several, (two) guys who have a bubbler at the dock and keep it in all year, As long as your marina isn't on a river mouth or similar inlet you'll have no problem.

dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2002 : 12:05:16

Two items and then I am forever done here, not to be longwinded: One, my remarks of previous posts have ONLY to do with SAILING (or powering) under certain conditions of ice. As to staying in the water in ice, I spent perhaps ten years in the water throughout the winter in the Long Island NY area, which sometimes froze solid, sometimes not, but always had ice more or less. I had bubblers sometimes, had propellor model sometimes, in one location of VERY fast currents close to Jones inlet had nothing, the ice couldnt form although it could be dangerous when carried against the boat in sharp chunks, I hung wooden fenders over the side made of four bys etc to avoid hull damage, there is NO problem staying in all year if you have some system to keep the hull free just around the boat, in fact its fun and you will be surprised the amount of winter interior projects that can be done if you have a wee stove or heater of some kind, being very careful about ventilation, of course. Second, VAL, you mention Bellport--do you ever sail scooters on th ice? An old pal of mine, Hank Maust, used to sail scooters out of Bellport, and was at one time Commodore of the Bellport bay YC, say hello for me if you know him (one of my favorite places to sail to was Old Inlet) That's all, fair winds, ron srsk #2343 Orion SW FL

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2002 : 13:38:38

Hi Hank,

Whenever the bay freezes I head for the Bellport dock to watch the iceboaters. They are truly amazing. I find that I age I become less cold tolerant...used to run in Central Park all winter in my skivvies. I'd die for sure if I tried it now.

I don't know Hank but when next the scooter club convenes I'll look him up and say hi for you.

Good gabbing with you perhaps we'll bump into each other down thata way.

Val

Val Bisagni

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