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stay tension

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bradminda
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/31/2011 : 21:03:18

I will be putting my 81 standard rig in the water soon and have always guessed on stay tension. I do not have a gauge any ideas or method on getting tension close without one. I will be berthed at grand marina, Alameda if any one is close i would like to hear from you.

Brad

Edited by - on

calden
Navigator

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USA
194 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2011 : 22:16:42

Brad:

Try this link: http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech25/snkmast.asp

It's from this site. Bill Holcomb does a great job describing rig tuning where you don't need to know the exact stay tensions.

By the way , I saw in your profile page that you are from Atwater. I lived in Merced for five years then needed to move to somewhere farther north! But I miss many aspects of the area. I visited Atwater a lot in my job.

Carlos

Edited by - on

bradminda
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2011 : 19:28:56

Carlos,

Thanks for the link. I got tired of the heat and light wind of Don Pedro lake and now make the trek to Alameda. Love sailing the bay and it's a lot easier to get friends to go sailing with me.

Brad

Edited by - on

DanM
Captain

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USA
256 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2011 : 06:17:35

Timely suggestion! The Marina Manager at RCR Marina, Darren Wright, who is also a C25 owner, referred me to the above link just yesterday.
RCR removed my mast last autumn for the first time since before my purchase in '04 and I had little idea until now about tuning. I had only checked up the mast for a straight kerf and no obvious slack or stay damage. With Bill Holcomb's logical guide, I feel more secure in what to do and why.
Here's TWO QUESTIONS: I am concerned about discoloration on the threads from the gunk which built up beneath tape. What to clean it with, and how to tape the cotterpins?

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2011 : 08:40:15

Thanks for that link...I need to tune my rig. My mast is just ever so slightly out of column with a gentle curve to starboard. It's really slight, maybe 1/2 inch off center in the middle, but enough to bother me. Also, my main is old and blown out...I like the idea of using mast bend to help with that. Maybe this weekend I'll replace the rigging for my traveler and backstay adjuster, and do the rig tuning procedures in the link....then tape everything up real good and I'm set for the summer.

Edited by - Joe Diver on 06/02/2011 08:40:56

calden
Navigator

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USA
194 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2011 : 09:55:56

I used Bill's guide for tuning my mast last year.

It really is very straightforward and easy when you do it step-by-step. Just have the right tools - a non-stretching line or wire rope (or long tape measure) for centering the mast, maybe a level to make sure the boat itself isn't listing port or starboard, and the right size wrenches to make turnbuckle adjustments fast and easy. The thing that used to intimidate me about mast and rigging adjustment is that I would fret over the PROPER and EXACT tensioning for stays and shrouds. I learned that there is a range of acceptable tensions, and different people "tune" their rig differently, based on where and how they sail. I mean, there really is a good enough range within which to work, and you have to go way out of bounds to break something or have a dangerous rig.

I also have an amazing resource: Bill Holcomb has his boat the next dock over from mine, and if we are both at the marina I have the incredible luxury of being able to simply yell out "Hey, Bill! I have a question!" :)

Carlos

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2011 : 11:12:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by calden
 I also have an amazing resource: Bill Holcomb has his boat the next dock over from mine, and if we are both at the marina I have the incredible luxury of being able to simply yell out "Hey, Bill! I have a question!" :)

Carlos
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You win!

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4023 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2011 : 14:41:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Also, my main is old and blown out...I like the idea of using mast bend to help with that<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well if you can get the mast to bend let me know how you did it. I just replaced all my standing rigging, Followed Bill's method and thought I could benefit from the mast bend since my main is a little blown to. I have the Loose gages. I had the forward lowers up to 50 on the scale (Way to much) and the aft lowers slacked fully off like spaghetti. Lay ed on the cabin top, Looked up, NO bend. The mast will bend to port or starboard very easily but I could not get it to go forward or aft. I guess our masts are just not that bendable that way. Ended up putting about 30 on the uppers, 28 on the forward lowers, and 20 on the aft lowers. The boat sails nice but I do have to re-tighten due to the new wire stretch.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2011 : 16:16:35

Really? Then what's the purpose of the adjustable backstay? Is it just an ineffective tool that's there just so you can say you have it? (marketing tool)

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4023 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2011 : 17:22:54

I don't mean bending the top of the mast back with an adjustable back stay, I'm referring to bending the middle of the mast forward. It's suppose to help flatten an older main that is baggy or blown out.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2011 : 20:23:50

Scott - you have almost a duplicate of my rig - I have 30 on the uppers, 20 on the aft lowers and 25 on the forward lowers. You will find that your downwind speed will increase nicely!

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2011 : 20:48:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Diver
 Really? Then what's the purpose of the adjustable backstay? Is it just an ineffective tool that's there just so you can say you have it? (marketing tool)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hi Joe,
I do not putz with trying to bend the mast on my Tall Rig. I used to have a Standard Rig on the boat and it too did not bend enough to focus on bending it to try to take care of the main shape. I think far more effective is a good downhaul and outhaul and boom vang and traveller to control the main shape.

Having said that, be sure to not allow reverse bend in the mast. So be sure to set things up like Derek posted for the order and relative tension used. My shrouds are almost scary loose, and the boat is fast because of it.....but the order of tension I use is the same as Derek posted.

However, the backstay adjuster is a POWERFUL tool for boat speed and pointing! It does that by tensioning the forestay, which moves the draft forward in the Jib without having to over tension the jib halyard. It also allows you to keep the forestay a bit more slack for those light air days when you want a very loose forestay for footing...

Just my opinion, but its worked well for me for 49 years of racing, 35 of which have been aboard Confetti.....

Cheers!

Chuck

Edited by - cshaw on 06/02/2011 20:50:42

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2011 : 21:08:06

Ahh! So, the backstay adjuster is for the jib and not the main?

I know I need a vang...the straps are there on the mast and boom, so I just need the block & tackle....I don't have a Cunningham either.

So far I've just been controlling/shaping the main with the mainsheet and traveler. I haven't played with the outhaul yet....Maybe I'll do that this weekend.

I sure wish my sailing coach would heal up faster....he broke his leg the day I bought my boat.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2011 : 07:19:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Diver
 Really? Then what's the purpose of the adjustable backstay? Is it just an ineffective tool that's there just so you can say you have it? (marketing tool)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The purpose of the adjustable backstay is to increase the tension on the forestay for sailing to windward, and to reduce the tension on the forestay (creating forestay sag, and powering up the jib) when sailing in light air or downwind. By increasing backstay tension, you can also bend the upper mast aft to an extent while pulling the middle part of the mast, and thus the mainsail, forward. That depowers the mainsail and reduces heeling.

The overall purpose of the adjustable backstay is to permit you to radically and instantaneously alter the tuning of your mast from downwind/light air tuning to windward/big wind tuning. I used mine frequently. It's one of the most useful tools available. If the rig isn't tuned correctly for an adjustable backstay, it won't work as designed, and very few people know how to tune it correctly. In my article on rig tuning, I explain the purpose of each pair of stays and how they work together. Because I never used a Loos gauge for tuning, I used Derek's measurements, but my thinking is that, if you tune for performance (i.e., you adjust the tension of each stay so that they each perform their intended function properly), then the proper amount of tension will follow as a matter of course.

My article can be found here: http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/racing/racing_tips7.asp

Edited by - Steve Milby on 06/03/2011 10:29:27

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2011 : 07:25:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Diver
 Ahh! So, the backstay adjuster is for the jib and not the main?

I know I need a vang...the straps are there on the mast and boom, so I just need the block & tackle....I don't have a Cunningham either.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hi Joe!
The backstay adjuster is actually for both, How much it bends the mast when you tighten it depends on how the rigging is set up, where the backstay and forestay attach to the mast, and how flexible the mast extrusion is. Fractional rigs have the forestay attach below the masthead, so when the backstay is tightened, it REALLY bows the mast, and the mast is flexible fore and aft. Cat 25's do not have that type rig, but the mast does bend a bit. Thats a good thing, but the reality of it (IMHO) is it does not bend enough to make big changes, and is a relatively stiff extrusion for both standard and tall rigs. So, I have found its much more effective to set the mast up to not bend aft in the middle, and to use luff tension to pull the draft back forward in the main as the wind increases. Use outhaul or a flattening reef (cunningham, etc.) to flatten the sail if simply moving the draft around is not enough, or take a reef (which is a giant size flattening reef).

Use the traveller (yes, even our short ones really help) to keep the main trimmed in close to allow the boat to point and also control the shape of the leech. (use leech tension to keep the 2nd from the top batten parallel to the boom going up wind is a nice thumbnail setting to shoot for). As the wind increases, ease the leech tension to allow air to spill from up high, but keep the boom trimmed close for pointing. Move the jib fairleads aft also to open the slot up high. If you are pounding into a chop, do not try to trim things as closely since you need the power. If you over trim in a chop, you will feel and look like you are pointing high, but will be making a lot of leeway.

Another simple trim test is the amount of weather helm you have. I do not have a balanced rudder. You always want a little weather help (for safety and also performance) but if you have to use much more than finger tip control (except in big puffs hitting you), you need to tension the luffs of the sails to move the draft forward and/or flatten them, or reef or shorten sail.

Downwind ease the luff and foot tensions and set the vang to apply leech tension. Also ease off the backstay to allow the draft to relax in the jib. Don't forget to tighten things back up before you turn and go back upwind (lots easier to increase thos tensions before the sail is loaded going up wind.

If you do not have a cunningham, you can still just use the downhaul and pull the gooseneck down if you have a sliding one, but if you are class racing there is a limit to how far down you are allowed to pull it, so thats when a cunningham is handy.

Fair winds!! Andy ENJOY pulling all those strings whether you are racing or crusing!

Chuck

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2011 : 07:42:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bradminda
 I will be putting my 81 standard rig in the water soon and have always guessed on stay tension. I do not have a gauge any ideas or method on getting tension close without one. Brad
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Brad,

I have never used a tension gage for initial setup. I let the boat tell me (when close hauled) what the tension needs to be. Then, back at the dock, a gage can be used to record what the setting are. That allows you to be able to repeat the setup reliably if you have to loosen part or all of the rigging.

The reason is simple. Every hull flexes a little bit (or a lot) differently than others. That flexing changes the tensions under load. So have someone lay beside the weather side of the mast step while going up wind and simply sight up along the mast. If the mast is not doing what you want, write down what it is doing on that tack, and tack the boat and do the same on the other side. Use that info to make adjustments to the rigging when its on the leeward side, then tack and see if its better or worse.....You cannot effectively make adjustments to the weather side while sailing, there is too much load!

And a caution, make SMALL adjustments,and ALWAYS have threads showing thru the turn buckles for the rigging and toggles!!!!! You can lose the rig backing things off too much!

Before you initially go out for your "tuning sail", and again back at the dock, use a measuring tape or a non-streachy halyard to make sure the mast is plumb with the boat (always also hoist a small line to pull a measuring tape back down instead of having to use the tape itself, since they ar not designed to be a halyard!!). Do not use a level since moving around on the boat changes whether the mast is really vertical. Measure to the same place on both sides, and watch out for wrapping the measuring string/tape around the rigging giving you a false reading (the wind can do the same thing by the way!)

Cheers!

Chuck

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2011 : 08:23:32

Wow, thanks for all the advice guys....I certainly have my tasks cut out for me this weekend

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