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tiller vs. remote control Honda OB

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/14/2002 : 12:57:25

Hi folks,

I'll be looking at another wing keel C25 the weekend after Christmas. Maybe this will be the one.
In any event, when I do get a boat, I'll want to put a new Honda Motor on it. I want reliability, quiet, and no smoke. My question now to you Honda owners out there, which should I get, the tiller, or remote control model. I do know I want the power thrust, extra long shaft, with electric start (to get a regulated 12 amp alternator)
What are the pros and cons of either? I do know that if I lose a rudder, the tiller model can act as back up steering. The remote control has no tiller, and has to be locked down. The remote control would be more convenient though.
Of course we also have the 8 vs 9.9 hp decision to make also.
Thanks
Frank Gloss
fgloss@knology.net

Frank

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2002 : 18:04:29

The tiller handle is pretty long, and the shift is on the front of the motor where it's easy to reach. And everything is out of the cockpit where it won't be under foot or against your back. Also, for maneuvering around a dock or into a slip, you can pivot the boat with no speed--not possible with just the rudder. As for 8 vs. 9.9, the only reason to get the 9.9 is if you just can't think of anything else to do with the extra $200. They're the same engine. Overall, I'd do what I did... <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/14/2002 18:07:13

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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1420 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2002 : 21:18:37

osmepneo's o/b (Honda 8, 4 stroke) has a tiller and remote gear shift in the cockpit. I disconnected the remote gear shift because I had to reach over the transome to throttle down and it is then just as easy to shift in that position.

I also want a tiller so I can use the o/b for turning in tight situations. It is a comfort to be able to use the o/b to turn the boat into and out of the dock area of the club.

As far as size goes, an 8 will drive you, easily at hull speed with less than half throttle, unless you you have some unusual tide/current conditions. I suspect the Knoxville Lake would NOT have serious current conditions, so the 8 would be right and I'd guess if you go to UT games by boat you'd want the tiller option. (That all assumes you're sailing at the K'ville Lake)

So, imho the 8 with a tiller is the right choice for most of our boats.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - osmepneo on 12/14/2002 21:21:38

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albert
Captain

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USA
262 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2002 : 00:15:59

Frank,

My boat came with a remote throttle. When the engine died I replaced it with a tillered outboard. I would not go back to the remote throttle. It gets in the way. I bumped my chin constantly on it. The sheets would get tangled in it, etc...But the worse thing is that you lose significant manuverability. With the tillered outboard I can really manuever the boat.

Now if you're really set on the remote throttle, you can install an "E.Z. Steer Auxiliary Outboard Steering System" http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001& langId=-1& catalogId=10001& productId=26109. There used to be a version for sailboat rudders. This unit will link your rudder to the outboard allowing you to retain the maneuverability.

Also check out "Suzy Q" setup http://c25c250.best.vwh.net/restricted/sqengstr.html

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

Edited by - albert on 12/15/2002 00:20:47

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2002 : 07:32:14

Hello again,

In Knoxville, I have my current C22 in a "summer slip" on lake Louden, which is just a wide spot in the Tennessee River. There is no Knoxville Lake. As I am a Gator, I do not go to UT games. You have to be a big alumni contributor to get tickets anyway.

I am, however, a trailer sailor. When I finally find a wing keel C25 I will be trailering it down to the Gulf, or the Keys, a few times a year.

It sounds like a tiller steered 8 hp elec start extra long shaft is the way to go. What do you think?

Frank Gloss
soon to be C25 owner.

Frank

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2002 : 11:50:19

Yup! Just one other consideration... The Honda and Yamaha high-thrust electric start XLS eights are both over 100 lbs. I don't know about you, but for me, that's a little heavy to be lifting over my head to remove for trailering and replace for sailing. Be sure your bracket can handle it--particularly on the trailer bumping down the road. Some folks here have written about lashing the motor/bracket up to the stern cleats or rail to take some load off the bracket and transom on the road. I don't trailer, but I added a fairly large piece of 1/2" Starboard between the bracket and the transom to help distribute the forces.

(The C-250 folks have an advantage--their motors mount directly to the transoms.)

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/15/2002 11:52:17

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2002 : 11:51:53

The one thing I love about my Mercury 8(and, IMHO, the neatest thing since sliced bread) is that there is no shift lever, because the shifter is integrated into the throttle on the tiller. Rotate the throttle counter-clockwise and it shifts into forward and excelerates, rotate the throttle in the opposite direction and it automaticallly shifts into reverse. I never have to take my hand off of the throttle to shift gears nor do I have to take my eyes off of the direction I am going. Additionally, the kill switch is at the tip of the throttle handle so shutting down is a simple thumb action.

On my old Johnson 9.9 I had to manually shift gears by reaching down over the transom to switch the shift lever. This usually meant I had to temporarily take my eyes off of where I was going to locate and shift the lever. Though not particularly difficult to do, taking your eyes off of the bow is not the most preferable thing to do when you are singlehanded, while in the midst of a tight U-turn into a narrow slip with the wind on the dockside beam and the current on the stern. As a matter of fact, I've seen more dock rammings that were partially caused by boaters who were fumbling to shift between forward-nuetral-reverse-nuetral-forward-nuetral-reverse because each time they shifted they had to take their eyes off of their forward momentum.

One other thing about the tiller handle. On earlier C25's the motor mount is on the port side and on most outboards, if not all, the tiller is on the port side of the motor. This places the outboard's tiller handle a comfortable parallel distance away(about body width) from the boat's tiller making it a little easier to manuever both tillers simultaneously. On boats with a starboard mounted motor, the tiller handle is located inboard, closer to the boat's tiller(probably less than a foot) and with the tillers so close, it makes it a little more difficult to use both hands to steer both tillers simultaneously. Because your right hand has to go behind your back when steering both tillers simultaneously, you have to be somewhat of a contortionist when you need to move the outboard's tiller to the far port direction.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
On the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2002 : 12:00:42

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
On boats with a starboard mounted motor, the tiller handle is located inboard, closer to the boat's tiller(probably less than a foot) and with the tillers so close, it makes it a little more difficult to use both hands to steer both tillers simultaneously. Because your right hand has to go behind your back when steering both tillers simultaneously, you have to be somewhat of a contortionist when you need to move the outboard's tiller to the far port direction.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
HUH??? <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> Wow! I never knew I was so agile! As I recall (always a dubious proposition), I just sit there (starboard) with my left hand on the motor tiller and my right hand on the rudder tiller... If it were more of a problem, I'd rig a link between the two, but I like them disconnected when under way.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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1916 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2002 : 15:22:37

I just checked the Mercury website. Their 4 stroke 9.9 sailpower is 133 lbs. The honda power thrust is only 101 lbs.

Frank

Frank

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2002 : 16:31:28

I have a Mercury 2-stroke, so weight isn't much of an issue for me. It came with the boat and it only has a couple of season's on it so I'll probably have it for a while anyway. Yeah, I know...2 strokes get lousy gas mileage, but since I only burn one to two tanks per season, fuel efficiency isn't exactly a deal breaker.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
On the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2002 : 16:53:14

"I never knew I was so agile! As I recall (always a dubious proposition), I just sit there (starboard) with my left hand on the motor tiller and my right hand on the rudder tiller... If it were more of a problem, I'd rig a link between the two, but I like them disconnected when under way." Dave

I have to say that I have only motored one time in a sailboat with a starboard mounted outboard and it just seemed kind of awkward to me, but then again my sailboats always had port mounted outboards so that is what I am used to. As for the link, I too, do not like a link because where I slip, it is kind of tight and my manuevering options are greater when I can operate both tillers idependently of each other.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
On the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Shelby
Navigator

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USA
155 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2002 : 17:41:17

Here is what I did when I got my new Honda 9.9 last year. I ordered it with the tiller. I then ordered the remote control kit, which had to be modified by the honda shop for the 2002 engine, and had them install it on the engine..no big deal. The actual remote control I installed in the cockpit. Even though it gets in the way some times, I still like it better than bending over the transom (ouch my back).

Shelby
'82 C25 #3208 "Third S", SKSR, Honda, Lake Pleasant, AZ

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 12/15/2002 : 21:38:21

Frank:

"In Knoxville, I have my current C22 in a "summer slip" on lake Louden, which is just a wide spot in the Tennessee River. There is no Knoxville Lake. As I am a Gator, I do not go to UT games. You have to be a big alumni contributor to get tickets anyway."

My daughter lived in Gainesville for a couple of years and is a Gator fan. She has started hearing rumors of gators being eaten by wolverines GO BLUE. <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle> BTW I went to Michigan!

On sailing issues . . ..

Louden Lake was the lake I was referring to, but this morning couldn't think of that name. IMHO an 8 hp o/b is more than adequate for sailing on that lake. For sailing on the Gulf a 9.9 might provide extra comfort. Regardless, I would want a tiller for my o/b and you have come to that conclusion.

Good luck on you searching for a wing keel. osmepneo has a wing and I really like it! <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - osmepneo on 12/15/2002 21:39:16

Edited by - osmepneo on 12/15/2002 21:40:09

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2002 : 21:39:08

I just don't like the smelly fumes of a 2 stroke, and being a closet environmentalist, I don't like the fact that 50% of the gas and oil of a 2 stroke ends up in my drinking water.

Frank

Frank

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2002 : 09:10:40

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I just checked the Mercury website. Their 4 stroke 9.9 sailpower is 133 lbs. The honda power thrust is only 101 lbs.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Honda Power Thrust 8 or 9.9 extra-long, electric start = 108 lbs. with no gas in the carburator. Lighter than the Yami and much lighter than the Merc, but still a load. <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 12/16/2002 09:11:32

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2002 : 09:36:50

"...being a closet environmentalist, I don't like the fact that 50% of the gas and oil of a 2 stroke ends up in my drinking water." - Frank

Are you as concerned that 100% of biologically toxic ablative bottom paint ends up in your drinking water or do you do the environmentally correct thing and just use wax on the bottom?

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
On the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Dennis Pierce
1st Mate

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USA
59 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2002 : 10:19:56

I question the 50% number! I've motored to Catalina enough times with the nose on the wind to judge fuel consumption and I know that 50% is not going out the exhaust. A Seagull? Maybe. I can't help but think that when we used Proline 25 years ago that lasted 3 or 4 years, it may have been better than repainting every year or two with the politically correct crap they sell today. As a point of reference, San Diego Bay was a sewer 30 years ago. After the DOD and the coastal commission required the Navy to install shore connections or self contained treatment plants, the bay became clean enough to swim.

Dennis Pierce
Gypsy Witch #1719

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2002 : 21:52:12

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I question the 50% number!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I can't support the figure, but I know that when I put my 2-stroke Yamaha 4 (which burned 100-1 mix) into a garbage can full of water to flush it and burn the last few ounces of fuel out, a considerable amount of oil ended up in the water. If most of it burned up, so would the engine. And since a Honda gets a little less than double the gas mileage of a comparable 2-stroke on the same boat, you'd have to suspect most of the difference is ending up in the drink. The oil slick around an idling 225 hp Johnson really tells the story.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2984 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2002 : 09:41:06

Whatever the percentage... it is too much. Insurance adjusters try to use percentage to their advantage... bottom line, if 5% of a rooms carpet got sewer back up contamination.... its got to go... though it might stink in a room only 5% of what it would if the whole room were contaminated... it still stinks.

<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/images/helming.jpg" border=0>
Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2002 : 14:36:40

Firstly, I do not dispute the fact that 4 stroke motors are more fuel efficient, pollute less, and are less noisy than their 2 stroke cousins and I do not advocate that the benefits of 2 strokes outweigh those of 4 strokes. I do, however, take issue with the suggestion that 2 stroke users aren't so environmentally concerned. If I were shopping for a new motor, I would, without doubt, buy a 4 stroke, but currently I have a practically new 2 stroke motor that came with my boat. I will probably use this motor until I sell my boat or until it conks out. When the time comes to buy a larger boat, that boat will probably have a relatively larger inboard diesel engine, which I don't think I have to tell anyone about what these engines belch into the water and air.

From what I've read, 2 strokes emit an average of 25 percent of their fuel unburned into both the water and air. This average flucuates depending on the type of two stroke you are using. A PWC with it's higher reving, greater horsepower engine and also the way it is used(quick acceleration, high constant speeds, stop/starts,...etc) have a higher percentage of unburned fuel. Smaller 2 stroke motors, which are driven more conservatively, emit less unburned fuel.

4 strokes, of course, emit significantly less pollutants and burn their fuel more efficiently, but still emit a laundry list of substances(MTBE, NO2, CO, benzene, toluene,...etc) through the prop and into the water and air. Additionally, I don't think 100% of used crankcase oil and 100% of used oil filters are being recycled, which means something is getting back to the environment. If you adhere to the environmental philosophy of "Whatever the percentage...it is too much", then the only alternative would be a zero emission electric motor or no motor at all, because a 4 stroke motor still pollutes the environment, although at a lower percentage than a 2 stroke.

It seems that whenever the discussion about 2 strokes and 4 strokes comes around, what soon follows is the "I don't like like the smelly, environmentally incorrect 2 stroke" rhetoric, as if 2 stroke owners actually LIKE the smelly, water polluting 2 strokes motors. Some might choose to use a big engine, low gas mileage, higher polluting truck or SUV to pull their boats, and that's fine. Since I don't need a tow vehicle, I choose to drive a high mileage, lower emission vehicle. This doen't mean I believe that the person with the tow vehicle cares less about the environment than I do.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
On the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2002 : 16:38:10

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Firstly, I do not dispute... ....doen't mean I believe that the person with the tow vehicle cares less about the environment than I do.
Don Lucier, 'North Star'
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Oops... Sorry Don! <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle> I hope we didn't give you carpal tunnel syndrome! In the overall scheme of things, you're absolutely right. We 4-strokers just need to reassure ourselves, frequently, that there's some good reason for all the money we spent and all the weight we're hefting around. <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Shelby
Navigator

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USA
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Response Posted - 12/18/2002 : 18:19:51

Dave,

By refering to the "weight" we 4 strokers are carrying around is getting kinda personal don't you think. Have you seen pictures of me? Ok, I'll work out more, go to Weight Watchers or something! <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Shelby
'82 C25 #3208 "Third S", SKSR, Honda 9, Lake Pleasant,AZ

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2002 : 19:22:51

Arlyn,

Neighbors sewage in your basement,..Now that's an environmental disaster! <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

About the 2 stroke issue, no apologies are necessary(that goes for you too, Dave).

Again, sorry about your troubles.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
On the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - dlucier on 12/18/2002 19:29:33

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/18/2002 : 19:36:09

No basement...in two bedrooms, den and hallway.

<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/images/helming.jpg" border=0>
Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2002 : 19:40:30

"No basement...in two bedrooms, den and hallway."

YIKES! <img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle> I hope you have good foul weather gear.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
On the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2002 : 21:32:21

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
YIKES! <img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle> I hope you have good foul weather gear.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
...like boots and gas masks! <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

Arlyn: If there's any chance of a repeat, you should open the cleanout where the line exits your home and stuff an old towel into the line so their toilets back up into their bathtubs instead of your house!

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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