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NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/25/2011 : 07:45:23

I reported a while back that the local yacht club would not let me race with them because I am not a member but I have to own property there to be a member.
Well last Tuesday I was out on my pontoon boat going fishing and I saw 5 sailboats. I
motored over to the committee boat and asked and he said talk to the man in a particular sail boat and he said "sure". So now I must hone my racing skills for the fall races.
Problem is the sails are 32 years old an it does not point real well.
Who cares.
One thing that troubles me is they use a European system of scoring using the formula:

TOT correction factor = 650/(550+phrf).
I checked this out at http://offshore.ussailing.org/PHRF/Time-On-Time_Scoring.htm

The last paragraph says:
TOT scoring is not a cure-all for all the inequities of handicapping. TOT scoring will not turn a fleet upside down. It usually does not affect the top boats. It usually moves the boats in the middle around a little. If the handicap spread in a class is large, it will tend to tighten things up a bit.

I may be wrong but the formular I beleive is linear since the only variable is PHRF. If PHRF goes up the correction factor goes down.
For example of your PHRF was 100 then the correction factor is 1 X PHRF.
If your PHRF is 250 then your correction factor is .81 X PHRF

Does anyone know about this system and can comment.

1998 Catalina 250WK
Ravaging
Albemarle Sound,NC

I spent most of my money on boats and beer, the rest I just wasted.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2011 : 13:14:14

I'm not familiar with that system and they use a different one where I race but just glad for you that you'll be able to race. The way I use our handicap system is, when it benefits me I go with it and when it doesn't I ignore it and just concentrate on when I crossed the line

Either way it's just great to be out there!

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2011 : 15:40:31

We tried TOT (Time on Time) for one year many moons ago and were very happy to return to the regular TOD (Time on Distance). One major problem with TOT is that in very light air, if a boat sails into a hole he is losing time to every other boat - even if some of them are in a hole! Basically, at any venue with light winds it is a disaster.

Edited by - Derek Crawford on 06/26/2011 07:48:52

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2011 : 09:03:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NCBrew
 ...I may be wrong but the formular I beleive is linear since the only variable is PHRF...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'm suspicious you're missing the key difference between TOD and TOT. TOD corrects by seconds per mile based on the length of the course (on the rhumb line). TOT, as I've understood it, multiplies each boat's elapsed time by a factor greater or less than 1 (smaller for slower boats) to determine corrected time. Your "650/(550+PHRF)" would produce such a factor. (A C-25 SR would get something like .84, while a Capri 25 would get something around .9)

If a slower boat sails into a hole, his correction, based on his elapsed time, will reduce the effect of that hole. If a slower boat gets a favorable shift (relative his boat-for-boat competition), he'll get less of a correction than they will. Everything tends to tighten up. I can envision some wild anomolies with TOT. For one thing, the lighter the air, the more the slower boats (lower factors) will be favored. Correspondingly, using the formula above, any boat with a PHRF < 100 will be disfavored in light air--the longer he takes, the more his corrected time will be increased by the factor.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/26/2011 09:48:44

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2011 : 16:39:06

Uhm, you finally are getting to go racing after all that? Why not just give it a try? Work on racing before you get into possible results. When I started racing the very last thing on my mind was results, I was more concerned about starts and laylines.

Unless you're a secret rockstar, in which case the scoring shouldn't matter.

Good luck, glad you got into the fray.

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 06/26/2011 16:39:54

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2011 : 18:55:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NCBrew
 ...I may be wrong but the formular I beleive is linear since the only variable is PHRF...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'm suspicious you're missing the key difference between TOD and TOT. TOD corrects by seconds per mile based on the length of the course (on the rhumb line). TOT, as I've understood it, multiplies each boat's elapsed time by a factor greater or less than 1 (smaller for slower boats) to determine corrected time. Your "650/(550+PHRF)" would produce such a factor. (A C-25 SR would get something like .84, while a Capri 25 would get something around .9)

If a slower boat sails into a hole, his correction, based on his elapsed time, will reduce the effect of that hole. If a slower boat gets a favorable shift (relative his boat-for-boat competition), he'll get less of a correction than they will. Everything tends to tighten up. I can envision some wild anomolies with TOT. For one thing, the lighter the air, the more the slower boats (lower factors) will be favored. Correspondingly, using the formula above, any boat with a PHRF < 100 will be disfavored in light air--the longer he takes, the more his corrected time will be increased by the factor.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think I understand it now that I read your explanation. i thought the .84 was then multiplied by the boats original PHRF. It is .84% of his time. That makes more sense.

Actually I don't even care if they register my time. I will sail as good as I can and enjoy it.
Thanks for your explanation.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2011 : 20:18:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NCBrew
 [quote]Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Actually I don't even care if they register my time. I will sail as good as I can and enjoy it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Now you've got the idea! (Then some day you might become a Derek Crawford, shooting for 100% bullets!)

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2011 : 07:15:00

Dave - we probably have the most fun boat on the lake, the bullets just seem to happen...

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2011 : 07:55:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 Dave - we probably have the most fun boat on the lake...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Uh huh! Bullets are the most fun!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2011 : 08:07:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NCBrew
 Actually I don't even care if they register my time. I will sail as good as I can and enjoy it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
For the pure fun of it, I raced in a fleet for two years that didn't keep my scores. I knew when I sailed well, and didn't need a tally sheet or trophy to confirm it. If you love to race, and can find a fleet that will let you race with them, enjoy the privilege. My only suggestion is that, even though you aren't eligible for a trophy, remember that all the other participants are, and, as a courtesy, you should try not to interfere with other boats to such an extent that you become a significant factor in the outcome of the race.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 06/27/2011 08:09:17

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2011 : 08:26:58

That's really an odd rule for membership. Based on experience with my club, yacht clubs generally go to great lengths to attract more "racers". Why worry about handicaps anyway? I've raced my boat for 23 years and only have a vague idea how my hanidcap is determined. Nor do I care. In know I have one' I know what it is' and I know it's applied at each race. Racing gets me in the water with other folks with a common interest. Besides, until you are a club member, they will not track your results anyway.

If you are new to racing, at your first opportunity to race, sign in with the committee boat. Stay out of the way tacking behind the start line and watch how it's done. A little prepratory reading on right-of-way rules would be helpful. Once you are across the line sail your boat the fastest you can and watch how the leaders sail the course. After a little practice mix it up at the start. It's probably the most fun part of a race where many boats are involved. It's also the most dangerous for novices though.

If you're not new to racing and you want your racing to count for something where a handicap is applied, shoot, join the club - or a club that has a racing program.

Edited by - on

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2011 : 09:17:24

I am not new to racing. I raced my 34' Hunter "ORION" with another yacht club but I live too far away to join them again.

I do not intend to make myself a pest or interfere with the others.

There is 1 boat with the same PHRF as mine and i will just try to beat him. I don't have to finish in front of him, I will just look and the amount of time I cross the start line and finish line to see how I did.

I have found that a wind shift can change the outcome. I hope to sail smarter. We have large wind shifts here in Albemarle Sound. The close proximity to the ocean causes a late afternoon wind shift almost every day.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2011 : 14:08:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NCBrew
 I am not new to racing. I raced my 34' Hunter "ORION" with another yacht club but I live too far away to join them again.

I do not intend to make myself a pest or interfere with the others.

There is 1 boat with the same PHRF as mine and i will just try to beat him. I don't have to finish in front of him, I will just look and the amount of time I cross the start line and finish line to see how I did.

I have found that a wind shift can change the outcome. I hope to sail smarter. We have large wind shifts here in Albemarle Sound. The close proximity to the ocean causes a late afternoon wind shift almost every day.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hopefully the club will have an "A" fleet for all the Vipers, 11 meters, Melges , J Boats and other sport boats and then a "B" Fleet for cruisers like the C-25's, C-27's and 30's, Macgregors etc. Also, our club does a normal start on Wednesdays and then a purusit style race on Sundays.

Your old sails might be an advantage in light air...

Good Luck!

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2011 : 14:15:47

Jeeps Peter, I thought we might be in the same club for a moment there. we run the same format Weds-Sunday. We have a third series on Lake Superior - single race averaging about 25 miles each as the crow flies.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2011 : 18:52:31

The real "purist" racing, as done on Sundays in the club in my old home town, is one-design. They have J-24, Sonar, and Ensign fleets. The Js and the Sonars generally live out of the water and get their undersides waxed every week--the Ensigns mostly live on moorings (and pray for heavy air). Where I am now, the purists have a Shields fleet--a beautiful classic one-design. Down in Oxford, MD, where I've spent some time, the purists are in a Star fleet--that's about as pure as it gets!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/27/2011 18:54:00

klassi1
1st Mate

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88 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2011 : 19:34:00

We race TOT. The formula includes a variable for wind conditions. Which changes your boat's adjustment factor. Additionally, the RC should tweak the formula so the the "mean" phrf boat in the fleet has an adjustment factor of 1.

For us, it has been as fair as any handicap system. I was skeptical when we first switched but I've compared the results TOT and TOD for a couple of races and not found a difference in placings. Call me a geek but I did create a spreadsheet that shows how much time I'm given or must give for different conditions and elapsed times.

Just go out and have fun. Hone your skills and the placings will come.

Edited by - on

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2011 : 05:39:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by klassi1
 We race TOT. The formula includes a variable for wind conditions. Which changes your boat's adjustment factor. Additionally, the RC should tweak the formula so the the "mean" phrf boat in the fleet has an adjustment factor of 1.

For us, it has been as fair as any handicap system. I was skeptical when we first switched but I've compared the results TOT and TOD for a couple of races and not found a difference in placings. Call me a geek but I did create a spreadsheet that shows how much time I'm given or must give for different conditions and elapsed times.

Just go out and have fun. Hone your skills and the placings will come.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So if there was no difference in the placings why not use TOD. Someone said when using TOT you cannot tell where you stand during the race.

I am also a geek so can you e-mail me the spreadsheet to dadinnc@gmail.com

Thanks to everyone for there comments.

At least i understand TOT now.

Edited by - on

klassi1
1st Mate

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88 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2011 : 06:28:31

It's hard to tell exactly where you stand regardless of the method. TOD I knew I had to be X seconds ahead a certain competitors for every mile. With TOT I have to be X seconds ahead for every hour. I believe we switched so that it was easier for the RC. Not that plotting waypoints was difficult but it takes any question of accurate distance out of the equation. Our RC are volunteers and it's not always the same people setting the courses.

Sending you the spreadsheet.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2011 : 07:59:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by klassi1
 ...I believe we switched so that it was easier for the RC. Not that plotting waypoints was difficult but it takes any question of accurate distance out of the equation. Our RC are volunteers and it's not always the same people setting the courses...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">But somebody is determining a wind speed factor, sometimes in varying conditions...

Edited by - on

klassi1
1st Mate

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88 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2011 : 09:02:08

Very true. No handicapping system is perfect, TOD or TOT. Don't like handicapping then go one design.

Edited by - on

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