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ruachwrights
Captain

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USA
258 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/26/2011 : 11:57:52

Well, another great year on Hajime. Looking at making some upgrades this year or...heck why not just buy another boat! Looking at a sweet Bene. Oceanus 1998 281 for 27,900. So I have a few questions.

A. 1) is it really an upgrade?: I looked at the boat. Pros: It's lightly used, it has a great enclosed aft berth cabin, nice head, nice galley, nice volvo, auto helm, sails, winches for single handing, nice 5000lb ballast, blue water construction. Decent 6' headroom near galley and chart table.

Cons: the salon and front v berth is no bigger than the 250. The headroom isn't great either toward the bow. Sure the woodwork is better but there really is not much in the way of storage outside of the giant locker under the port cockpit seat. There's no room for a cooler for instance. Also the systems are way complicated. The thought that I could leave a few seacocks open and sink my boat makes me shudder. Seeing as I am going to be taking out a 15000 loan (provided Hajime sells of course) just when she was about to be paid off, I have to ask myself is the boat I'm getting going to be worth the boat I am leaving behind. The 250 is a basic boat to be sure, but its a basic boat that I know and am comfortable with (if a bit cramped when my family of five goes on three day cruises into the open ocean). Can anyone relate to my champagne problem?

B. Does anyone want a sweet 250 wk with a 2007 Nissan engine and a new teak sole?

Vern Wright

97 Catalina 250 TR/ WK
Hull #301
Attleboro, MA

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2011 : 12:25:12

If you want to go bigger, go bigger. I'd be looking at 30' or more.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2011 : 12:43:33

Sound like an upgrade to me. She is pretty new so maintenance will be low. Six feet of headroom is a major plus (if you are under six feet tall). Inboard motor is also a big plus. Any bigger boat with systems will be more complex so you need to decide if those systems are worth it to you.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2011 : 13:16:29

Must be [url="http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1998/Beneteau-281-2193593/Falmouth/MA/United-States"]this one[/url].

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 ...Inboard motor is also a big plus...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yes, for ocean cruising... or a big minus--it all depends. Our little outboards are self-contained systems with no holes in the boat for prop-shafts and cooling water, no intake for marine growth to clog, no built-in diesel tank to accumulate algae and sludge,... Something goes wrong and you lift the motor off and take it home or to the shop.

Vern, only you know the answer to this one.

I certainly can't help with the "family of five" cruising part.

BTW, the ballast isn't 5,000 lbs--that's most of the boat. In fact the listed ballast is less than my C-25 had. A C-28 has about double the ballast. I'd call the Bendy a little light. (Sten would call it a cork.

)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/26/2011 13:27:31

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
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Response Posted - 10/26/2011 : 17:15:56

I have been back and forth on moving to a C-30 for a couple of years. Personally, I wouldn't go less than 30 if I gave up trailerability. The difference is astounding. I've looked at a number of boats, and few compare to how well Catalina uses the space. This is a little less true in the 310/320, but obvious in the C-30 Mk.2. The early models were woefully under powered, but middle eighties and later have bigger engines. A sailor with a 30 on my dock stopped to chat while I was de-rigging Pearl, and he was weighing the thought of moving to a trailerable because he really wanted to be able to take his boat to the Gulf in two days behind a truck. Your call, but you should look at some 30's for 20 - 30 K if you decide to change. I've looked at several nice C-30's much closer to the 20K end. A family of five would certainly be crowded for more than an overnight on a 25.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 10/26/2011 : 18:45:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Must be [url="http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1998/Beneteau-281-2193593/Falmouth/MA/United-States"]this one[/url].

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 ...Inboard motor is also a big plus...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yes, for ocean cruising... or a big minus--it all depends. Our little outboards are self-contained systems with no holes in the boat for prop-shafts and cooling water, no intake for marine growth to clog, no built-in diesel tank to accumulate algae and sludge,... Something goes wrong and you lift the motor off and take it home or to the shop.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I love the simplicity of our boats but if a person decides to step up to a bigger, more robust boat with more features then I consider an inboard motor to be part of the package. If this boat will be in the ocean or open bays where chop can be an issue then having the prop under the boat and in front of the rudder is something I consider a plus. Plus my Honda is so heavy it might as well be permanent!

Edited by - Nautiduck on 10/26/2011 18:55:57

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2011 : 20:01:11

Interestingly, the only thing that hasn't come up is, how does she sail?

I'm constantly looking for my next boat (who isn't?) and when I come across something interesting, I do some quick research on the sailing characteristics of the boat and if the reviews aren't favorable, I just move on. This past summer a fellow sailor at my marina was giving me a tour of his sailboat and when I complimented his interior by saying it was just like an RV, his response was, "yeah, the problem is, she sails like one too!"

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2011 : 20:29:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 ...Plus my Honda is so heavy it might as well be permanent!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I hear ya on that--had one.

If I bought another sailboat where I am now on the Atlantic coast, she'd have an inboard diesel. But she would also have a lot more than 1675 lbs. of ballast if she was 28' long with a mast more than about 15' tall. If a C-25 with 1900 lbs. of lead is not a "blue water boat" (and it isn't), that's barely a "brown water boat"--although not on Frank Hopper's brown water.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/26/2011 20:45:24

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5897 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2011 : 20:56:12

I suspect the boat relies on form stability to make up for the reduced ballast.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/26/2011 21:39:09

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2011 : 22:17:59

Form stability can be high up to a point, and then disappears--for example when a big gust or wave hits. IMHO, a 28' by 9'5", 5732 lb. cruising monohull with 1675 lbs. of ballast (<30%) and 4' draft is a bay/lake boat--not meant to be subjected to 4'+ seas, either for safety or comfort. Some people are more adventuresome.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/26/2011 22:21:33

redviking
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USA
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Response Posted - 10/26/2011 : 23:41:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter I'd call the Bendy a little light. (Sten would call it a cork.

)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Actually, a cork has more positive stability. IMO, buy a boat for its sailing capabilities FIRST, comfort second. But I hear Winnebago is getting into the sailboat business.

To me, that sounds like a lot of money for not a lot of boat. For about the same amount of cash, a good old boat with better sailing and safety capabilities can be had. But friends don't let friends buy bleach bottles.

sten

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3448 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2011 : 03:39:25

Going back to Vern's original post, I would think many of us have thought the same thing...should I get a larger boat (or for that matter, should I get a smaller boat). I have also looked at the Beneteaus. No matter what size boat you seem to consider, there are always compromises. The Cat 25 is certainly larger than the new (back in 1980) Oday 23 I use to own but there were compromises there as well. You could actually sleep in the VBerth on that boat and for the few overnighters I went on, the pull out sink and stove on slides underneath the cockpit seats into the main cabin worked for me. That also freed room for an additional two to sleep on the port and starboard sides. The Cat 25 while larger sacrificed the sleeping in the VBerth (except for short adults or kids) to put in a permanent galley station and an extra sink up forward.

When considering a larger boat compared to a Cat 25, it seems that anything under 30' is a compromise as well as they take up room with an inboard, wheel steering and possibly a nav station sandwiched into the cabin. Many do not have a shower area or significant improvement to cabin space and sleeping quarters unless you go to at least a 30-32' range. So, I agree with Dave's comments to consider a 30' at least if going larger.

getting back to the Beneteaus, I do not have any personal experience as to their sailing ability but when I was looking at a First 235 and comparing it to a Cat 25, certainly the quarters were more cramped and it was a lighter boat. But looking at it's configuration, it looked like it was probably a fast boat...or at least faster than a Cat 25.

When I recently visited Long Island, I went to look over our old sailing area originating in Huntington Harbor. While there, we stopped in at Willis Marina and took a look at the Benetaus. I forget the size , believe it was around 35' but we looked at several boats and so it could have also been a 42'. In any case, they had two configurations side by side. One was configured for racing and one for cruising. These were same size but different hulls and arrangements. What a difference. The racer was much tighter and sparse setup inside, whereas, the cruiser...well I am not into racing and so I really liked the cruising configuration. Again, I have no personal experience on sailing on a Beneteau and I have not compared their specs but they do put a smile on my face.

I'm not ready to move up and though I consider it now and then...I also have to consider for the river sailing I do now and the convenience to work/home vs going to the Chesapeake, the Cat 25 works well in these river waters. Lower draft, mostly day sailing with occasional overnighters. A larger boat would have benefits but docking fees would go up, maintenance costs and time/effort to accomplish would increase. I single hand sail probably 80% of the time and including with my spouse, then figure 95% of the time. The 5% of the time we have guests, it is not for overnighters and so I would have to say that even with the Cat 25, we probably under-utilize it's capabilities. On the other hand, if we had a large family that was all sailing together a significant percenatge of the time and for overnighters.......and I figured in the maintenance, etc addl as not a big issue, then I probably would be considering an upgrade to a larger boat more seriously.

One thing, though this may not be fully true but it seems that many young families that could use the larger boat, their time is more constrained with other activities and sometimes there are money constraints as well. Then when one gets into the middle ages or older and kids grown and possibly already out of the house, that's then when many can afford the larger boat...but then really need to consider the justification for it...unless the expense is of no concern.

Edited by - OLarryR on 10/27/2011 03:41:45

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2011 : 08:19:16

We had a Benneteau 281 First at our club. I looked at it very hard and discovered a class action suit because of a gelcoat issue below the waterline. The one at our club looked like the entire bottom had been shattered like a hardboiled egg. The PO had fought with Benneteau over it and they said it was cosmetic and would not stand behind their infamous gelcoat warranty. I figured a serious barrier coat would deal with it and to move on. to other issues. The next was the cast iron keel... hate them! Then the weird cockpit, very small, no room behind the wheel to stand, sloped goofy coamings etc. Then I went below, they may build them in America but I could not get my butt through the doors, they are built for the Euro body. I passed and a young couple bought it, hated it, sold it on eBay, and replaced it with a Catalina 27.

Edited by - pastmember on 10/27/2011 08:24:50

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1773 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2011 : 09:38:56

Lots of good thoughts have already been posted. I have friends with Bene's who love em -- but they are all racers at heart and do minimal crusing. I have been casually looking and believe the C30's are one of the better values in used boats. Like any used item, condition and a good survey dictates value, but . . . I think if I wanted to race and cruise I would consider at Bene but if I am just crusing, especially off New England, a full keel C30 may offer the best value. That's my logical answer . . . .

Then again, I live in snowy New England and own a convertible, very illogical but just because I like it. Vern, think wisely but follow your heart!

Edited by - bigelowp on 10/27/2011 09:40:09

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 10/27/2011 : 10:20:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Interestingly, the only thing that hasn't come up is, how does she sail?

I'm constantly looking for my next boat (who isn't?) and when I come across something interesting, I do some quick research on the sailing characteristics of the boat and if the reviews aren't favorable, I just move on. This past summer a fellow sailor at my marina was giving me a tour of his sailboat and when I complimented his interior by saying it was just like an RV, his response was, "yeah, the problem is, she sails like one too!"

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I was going to weigh in on that, my friend has a Bene 323, and I can sail circles around her. Not a fast boat, and wants to round up to easily. No spin, and only a 100% head sail. Gorgeous boat, awesome interior but slow and not as much fun to sail as my C-25 IMHO.

So I would take this boat sailing a couple times to see how you like her before deciding.

As an aside, the First series seems like it is their racing series and the Oceanis is their cruising series.

Nice cockpit, sail controls etc. Very super nice down below. me at the helm of the 323

Here you can see Stephanos, head sail partially rolled up, on an overtake mission in the background....

Brad, the owner at the wheel. I will say this, he takes impeccable care of that boat. She is sparkling clean and down below reminds me of some swank down town apartment. They did a really good job with the interior on that boat.

Edited by - PCP777 on 10/27/2011 13:48:47

Tomas Kruska
Admiral

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Czech Republic
522 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2011 : 12:07:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
One thing, though this may not be fully true but it seems that many young families that could use the larger boat, their time is more constrained with other activities and sometimes there are money constraints as well. Then when one gets into the middle ages or older and kids grown and possibly already out of the house, that's then when many can afford the larger boat...but then really need to consider the justification for it...unless the expense is of no concern.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thats fully TRUE! I'm that young family now ;-)

Edited by - on

Unsinkable2
Captain

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USA
273 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2011 : 19:19:37

Another one I keep looking at is the Catalina 270. Still very trailerable, but MUCH more room inside. I really like the headroom and the open forward layout. Aft cabin is a little cramped, but hey.

Anyone have experience or advice on the 270's?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2011 : 20:49:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Unsinkable2
 Another one I keep looking at is the Catalina 270. Still very trailerable...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...with a wide load permit (9'10" beam) and an F-250 (think 10,000+ lbs. with trailer). It's a little lighter, considerably beamier, and has a little less ballast than the C-27... a variation on the C-250 layout below, and much roomier cockpit than the C-27 because of the beamy stern. From what I've heard, the C-27 is a bit more seakindly than the 270, much like the C-25 compared to the C-250. But the 270 seems to have worked out as a coastal cruiser. (I find it odd Catalina now offers nothing between 25' and 30').

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 10/27/2011 : 20:55:41

Dave, as I read the advice here and on Sailnet, it seems like people either say to go 14-18 and play in small lakes/bays, 20-25 and have a trailerable boat, or go up to 30+. Those 3 feet make a huge difference in comfort and performance, and I'd be willing to bet that the incremental manufacturing cost difference heavily favors the 30-32' range over a 27/28'. If nothing else, Catalina is good at reading the market and keeping their lines selling.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/27/2011 : 21:07:22

Jim, I agree in many ways, but a 30-32' sailboat effectively half again as big as a 27-28' sailboat. (Look at the displacements of a C-270 and a C-309.) Friends of mine had a C-27 and stepped up to a C-30... Huge difference. The 27 was more like a C-25, but with standing headroom, an inboard, and a bigger boat feel in seas. Initially, the 30 would have been intimidatingly large for them, but like all things, that changed. (They now sail a C-34.) I guess today's 1%ers are ready to start bigger.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/27/2011 21:16:12

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 10/28/2011 : 03:48:48

I was thinking about this today while working on replacing the entire sanitation system, (2.5 years old and the calcification was such that you couldn't push a pencil thru), and realized that for that kind of money I could buy a lot of boat. I've met many a cruiser on a budget with nice older bluewater boats that were 30-36 feet who told me that they paid anywhere from $5-$30K for their boat.

But to each their own. I'm curious about the bluewater build reference. I wouldn't call that boat anywhere near bluewater FYI.

I agree with Dave that as soon as Catalina started putting zero's on their boats, that the seakindly characteristics of their older sisters - if you can call them that - were left out of the design/build.

sten

Edited by - on

Ape-X
Admiral

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662 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2011 : 04:34:17

isn't there a c28 and 280 too?

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/28/2011 : 05:08:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ape-X
 isn't there a c28 and 280 too?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Chris Craft makes a power boat called the Catalina 280.

I've seen a few sailboats listed as Catalina 280, but I think it's a typo and/or owner confusion. The Catalina 28mkII is a similar vintage as the 250 and 270, so I think people mistakenly assume it's called 280.

If someone REALLY has seen a Catalina 280 sailboat, please snap a closeup of the model decal and post it here.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 10/28/2011 : 05:46:30

Up until last year Catalina made the C28, which is very similar to the C270 with late model used boats available as the production run was around 15 years.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/28/2011 : 12:00:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bigelowp
 Up until last year Catalina made the C28, which is very similar to the C270 with late model used boats available as the production run was around 15 years.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We have one on our dock, very beamy, nice looking boat.

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2011 : 15:40:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ruachwrights
 Well, another great year on Hajime. Looking at making some upgrades this year or...heck why not just buy another boat! Looking at a sweet Bene. Oceanus 1998 281 for 27,900. Vern Wright
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Don't buy a French built boat!

Stick with a Catalina...BTW, my C 320 is for sale. Great boat, all the Catalina equipment, plus loaded with options!

Edited by - on

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