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Auto-Inflate Preservers Pill Cage/Bobbin

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OLarryR
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Initially Posted - 11/01/2011 : 04:15:18

This is both a question and information for those that have or are considering getting an auto-inflate life vest. Information first...followed by a question:

Auto-inflate vests have either a pill cage also referred to as a "bobbin" that disintegrates when it hits water or new (expensive) vests may have the low pressure sensitive hydrostatic gage. Mfrs recommend replacing the bobbins every year or two and those with thee new hydrostatic gages need to be replaced about every 5 years. However, the hydrostatic gages cost approximately $60-$80 to replace vs the pills/bobbins that you get perhaps 3 or more in a case that costs about $20 (though the pills/bobbins stored have approximately a shelf life of 3 years before they all have to be replaced). So...pick your poison - something has to be replaced periodically or you can buy a whole re-arming kit which cost considerably more. The new hydrostatic gages are considered superior to the bobbins because the bobbins are effected by humidity and the gages more directly trigger when below water surface based on very low static pressure vs a disintegrating pill. But both work and bot approved by USCG.

Here is the thing: before rushing to buy one of these vests, check out the costs of replacing re-arming kits and the bobbin or gage. Check availability and cost and then do your comaparisons and buy what is best for you. I stress check out availability - Who sells the re-arming kits and the bobbins or gage since ditsributors carry the vests but not all distributors sell the periodic replacement parts - So, this is something to check out before buying a vest. If a re-arming kit is common to many vests, then that it is likely that re-arming kit and bobbins/gage will be available some years from now. But this is a Heads Up to a potential issue with these auto-inlfate vests - getting the periodic replacement parts a few years from now.

Here is my experience so far: I bought the West Marine Model 4000 auto inflate vest several years ago. It fits fine and I wear it all the time. I have been negligent in periodic replacing the bobbin or a whole re-arming kit but I am looking into that now. I also plan to buy a new auto inflate vest for myself and will keep my present one for my spouse since she does not wear a life preserver at present.

The story is that while the West Marine Model 4000 auto-inflate vest was WM's top model several years ago, they only carry the re-arming kits and not the bobbins. The bobbins that West Marine carries are for a different re-arming kit - more popular re-arming kit (one used in many of their vests other than what was their top of the line Model 4000). The West Marine/Stearns Model 4000 has a Secumar 4001 Re-arming kit and I cannot locate a distributor that sells the bobbins for it. It appears this re-arming kit was only used in very few auto-inflate vest models and believe it is made in the UK. Anyone know where you can get Secumar 4001 bobbins from a USA distributor ? I have been searching the web but have not come up with a source.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/01/2011 04:17:17

DaveR
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Response Posted - 11/01/2011 : 05:50:48

Good info Larry, thanks. I bought a couple auto inflatables 3 years ago (or so) and haven't re-armed them. Time to take a look I think!

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 11/01/2011 : 09:02:19

Dave,

Interesting thing about the bobbins/pills is that coincidentally I had training not too long ago on reliability centered maintenance (as opposed to time based maintenance). One of the examples given was the Coast Guard use of auto-inflate vests and that they were changing the pills every 6 months. After detailed review of failure rates or should I say lack of failures, the maintenance to change the pills was decreased in periodicity. I forget to what they extended it to but it was either 1 or 2 years. In any case, my having not changed it out in at least 4 years...I would say I am due for the pill change. But since the CO2 cartridge has never discharged and the basic re-arming device is intact, the pill is really all that needs to be changed out. Somewhere in my house, I have the spare re-arming kit that came with my vest. What I may do is sink my vest in the bathtub and see if the pill/re-arming kit works okay. That at least gives some assurance if after all these years the pill/re-arming device still works as it should. Then I would change the pill in my unused re-arming kit and install that device in the vest.

But I would much rather buy just the pill(s) for replacement than another re-arming kit.

Edited by - on

DaveR
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Response Posted - 11/01/2011 : 09:39:17

Yeah, ya know I don't even know what brand mine are, so will find out and start searching for the pills.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 11/01/2011 : 09:55:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 In any case, my having not changed it out in at least 4 years...I would say I am due for the pill change. But since the CO2 cartridge has never discharged and the basic re-arming device is intact, the pill is really all that needs to be changed out.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Check your owner's manual as you may find they recommend annual auto inflation tests. In addition, they may recommend manually inflating the vest every couple of months.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 11/01/2011 : 12:36:58

I'm kinda OCD about our life jackets. We purchased a pair of WM auto inflate models in 2005 very early in our ownership role.

Having seen the maintenance they do on the helicopter crew life jackets, I felt that was close to the way to go for us.

So each year I inspected every part of the jackets, replaced the bobbins, and wrote the date of the inspection inside on the label.
This year we felt it time to replace the jackets, nothing wrong with the old ones, a bit grubby, but fully serviceable, just OCD. I did an inspection on the jackets on day 1, found a defect and returned it for exchange without any problems from WM.

At the same time as I bought the new jackets, I also purchased two new rearming kits, they were slightly different from the old designs. They did not have two in-stock, but got them within a couple of days.

Reading this topic, I think I'll go buy a couple more spare rearming kits.

FYI, I keep the kits in a double poly bag inside a Tupperware dish when they are on the boat.

Thanks for bringing this up.

Paul

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 11/01/2011 : 16:22:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 At the same time as I bought the new jackets, I also purchased two new rearming kits, they were slightly different from the old designs. They did not have two in-stock, but got them within a couple of days.

Reading this topic, I think I'll go buy a couple more spare rearming kits.

FYI, I keep the kits in a double poly bag inside a Tupperware dish when they are on the boat.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Paul,

You might want to refer to your owner's manual to check their recommendation on storing re-arming kits. The Stearn's manual I looked at says not to store pill cage assemblies for more than 18 months before use. (Are they dated?)

Also, as to storing it in a double poly bag inside a tupperware dish, the manual says, "store your pill cage in a ventilated package, do not store in a sealed container."

(The bold and underline is their emphasis, not mine.)

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 11/01/2011 : 18:24:56

Yep, I read that, our bags have desicant baggy's in them too.

It would seem to me that if left in ventilated space, they would be subject to more moisture.

OCD rules.

Paul

Edited by - on

Voyager
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Response Posted - 11/01/2011 : 20:18:02

I have a top-of-the-line Mustang inflatable PFD that the USCG offered to members of the US Power Squadron for training and demos.

Every new member demo day (usually early June), we throw some volunteer (sometimes it's me, sometimes our education officer) overboard in the harbor, and the PFD inflates.

Then we deflate it once again and use the blow tube to demonstrate what to do if the PFD does not automatically inflate. Blow it up!

Every year someone invariably comes up to me and says, "you know I've had an inflatable for years, I've never needed to use it and I had NO IDEA you could blow it up using the tube. Thanks!" I explain that its advised to test it out every two years and to replace the CO2 cartridge and bobbin/pill at that time.

I also bought a West Marine model (yellow with solas reflective tape) for the Admiral to which I added a whistle and a flasher. We've had it a few years now. I have replaced the bobbin and pill last year, and will do so again next season.

One guy told me he bought one model from WM and wore it religiously for several years. Then one day a plastic bag fell out of the pouch on the deck containing the pill, bobbin and CO2 cartridge. Turns out he never installed the parts!!! Even though he wore it all the time, it would have done him no good at all, since the mechanism was not installed in the PFD.

What do they say, "if all else fails, read the instructions???"!!!

Edited by - on

JimGo
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Response Posted - 11/01/2011 : 20:28:30

Bruce,
As you pointed out earlier, he COULD have inflated it by mouth! But I get your point.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 11/02/2011 : 03:48:22

Bruce - Good story !! Yes - There is a lesson to be learned by all regarding this safety gear. These auto-Inflates definitely have their advantage. I would not normally wear a life preserver when I go sailing but since the auto-inflates are not cumbersome, I always wear it and it has become a habit. So, for that reason alone, I recommend all get one or two of them just because you tend to always wear them and that is a big plus when thinking about safety.

Looking at the catalogs - Defender and WM, you can see the section regarding buying new re-arming kits and/or pills/bobbins. Defender catalog does not actually indicate the mfr of the re-arming kits but just has a small pick list referred to by the current auto-inflates they sell. But if you have an older model auto-inflate...you would have to do a bit more digging to find out what re-arming kit to order. WM has a better section regarding reordering re-arming kits. It has the re-arming kit mfrs name, model and references the auto-inflates that each is applicable to and that list goes back to vests sold several years ago. Most...but not all the re-arming kits are by one manufacturer but then different model re-arming lits. But you can see how common that one mfrs re-arming kits are for so many different model vests. I believe most if not all of that one mfrs re-arming kits have the same pill/bobbin and WM sells them in a pack of 3. But my vest takes the one oddball re-arming kit that was specific to the WM Model 4000 vest and that re-arming kit is made by Secumar. WM sells only the re-arming kit and not the pills/bobbin for it. A check of the web and locating a USA distributor for those pills/bobbins...so far I have not come up with a source. So ...I'll probably buy another complete re-arming kit but that is really not necessary since the re-arming kit consists of the CO2 cartridge and the spring/trigger mechanism that sets off the CO2 cartridge. The pill is really the only thing in it that would rapidly deteriorate within a year or two. Perhaps the spring in the re-arming kit but my thought is that would last a lot longer ....for example, the new vests with the hydrostatic gage only require replacement every 5 years....so it is the water sensitive component - pill or gage that is the controlling factor as to when maintenance really needs to be done. Though, as others have pointed out. There are other considerations such as possible damage to the vest and so annual testing may be a wise thing to accomplish regardless of when components would deteriorate based on mfrs recommendations.

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/02/2011 03:53:20

britinusa
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Response Posted - 11/02/2011 : 07:23:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 Yep, I read that, our bags have desicant baggy's in them too.

It would seem to me that if left in ventilated space, they would be subject to more moisture.

OCD rules.

Paul

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And they are sold in poly bags

Paul

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 11/02/2011 : 09:02:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 Yep, I read that, our bags have desicant baggy's in them too.

It would seem to me that if left in ventilated space, they would be subject to more moisture.

OCD rules.

Paul

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And they are sold in poly bags

Paul
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm just throwing this out there, but I'm wondering if maybe the manufacturer's emphasis on storing the pills in a well ventilated place is due to a designed optimum ambient humidity level, not too moist and not too dry?

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 11/02/2011 : 09:35:58

I am 99% sure that dryer is always better. The reason they're sold in poly bags is because they come out of the factory totally dry. The reason they don't want customers storing them in poly bags is because they are used in a marine environment, so likely to go into the bag wet. Sealing in the moisture allows it to diffuse to the pill.

Just my hypothesis, but I'm stickin' to it.

I still am really fond of my tiny dehumidifier, described [url="http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/65150-tiny-dehumidifiers.html"]here[/url]. I've come to prefer it over a Nicro solar vent, for a variety of reasons.

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 11/02/2011 : 10:23:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 I still am really fond of my tiny dehumidifier, described [url="http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/65150-tiny-dehumidifiers.html"]here[/url]. I've come to prefer it over a Nicro solar vent, for a variety of reasons.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ventilation per Don Casey...

"When I walk the docks on a weekday, I see far too many closed-up boats without any signs of ventilation. If yours is one of them, you should know that stagnant air in the cabin is not doing your boat any good. Because hotter air can hold more moisture, the air inside a sealed boat on a summer day will be about three times as wet as the air outside-air that in the summertime at the shoreline is likely plenty humid to begin with. This steamy air permeates everything inside the cabin, fostering rot, corrosion, and mildew that are damaging to boat, gear, and locker contents. Moisture trapped inside the boat even contributes to saturation of the fiberglass-the cause of hull blisters.

The most obvious source of interior moisture is water in the bilge, but even when the bilge is bone dry, the air inside an inadequately ventilated boat will still be wet. The daily heating and cooling cycle acts like a heat pump. The warming air sucks in moisture from the outside, which condenses out when the cabin cools at night. A few days of this cycle and the interior of your boat is as soggy as a rain forest. This is doing damage to your boat."

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 11/02/2011 : 10:36:47

Your Don Casey quote mentions nothing about a dehumidifier. A properly sized and functioning dehumidifier totally changes the equation. If you have shore power, a small dehumidifier is a viable option, especially on a 25 foot boat which does not have a whole lot of deck space for installing vents.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Ventilation per Don Casey...

"... the air outside-air that in the summertime at the shoreline is likely plenty humid to begin with..."
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
With a dehumidifier, you can get the air drier than the outside air that a Nicro vent would be drawing into your cabin 24/7.

When I open my sealed up boat and enter my cabin on a hot humid day, or even on a humid night, I notice the drier air inside as soon as I go down below.

Edited by - TakeFive on 11/02/2011 10:38:32

Voyager
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Response Posted - 11/02/2011 : 11:08:21

Not to hijack this thread but maybe a dehumidifier discussion can take place in a different topic. I'm curious about the 12V dehumidifier taking 6A since my battery would drain in about 6 hours with that load.

Edited by - on

JimGo
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Response Posted - 11/02/2011 : 11:15:52

The auto-inflate preservers sound like additional point-sources of failure and additional annual maintenance costs. Are they REALLY worth all the money and effort described by Larry?

I'm sorry, I don't mean to hijack the thread, but thought the question was relevant given the issues described above. I can always start a new thread if that's better.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 11/02/2011 : 13:03:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 The auto-inflate preservers sound like additional point-sources of failure and additional annual maintenance costs. Are they REALLY worth all the money and effort described by Larry?

I'm sorry, I don't mean to hijack the thread, but thought the question was relevant given the issues described above. I can always start a new thread if that's better.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Watching the skippers and crew / pax on the outbound boats leaving our regular launching site at Black Point Marina in Biscayne Bay FL, you would wonder how many of them would wear the preservers if they had comfy auto inflatables. For sure, the majority, the big majority, of skippers/crew/pax on everything from John boats to nearly mega yachts don't even know they are supposed to have them life jackets for each person aboard let alone the benefit of wearing them.

I would not wear the slab of polystyrene that came with the boat as life jackets in the safety package. You might as well wear a straight jacket.

So the auto inflate models are worth every penny - because we wear them!

IMOH!

Paul

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 11/02/2011 : 20:10:49

Are the auto-inflates worth it considering their high initial cost, perodic maintenance and high maintenance costs ? Jim raises a good question that I am sure others would ask as well.

An auto-inflatable vest/preserver is of course optional and it is an option that costs much more initially compared to a life vest and a staggering cost over the standard boxy style life preserver and then add the periodic maintenance requirement of the auto-inflate vests - then the auto-inflate total owmership costs are very high indeed.

The thing is that rarely do adults ever wear a life preserver onboard and in some cases, the life preservers are tucked away and not very accessible. Since the auto-inflates are very compact, do not get in the way and are comfortable when on, once you start wearing one, it becomes a habit to always putting one on. This then is a significant positive safety consideration especially if single handed sailing and you somehow fall off the boat....at least you have a life preserver on !

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/02/2011 20:43:29

dlucier
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Response Posted - 11/03/2011 : 06:27:07

Unquestionably, the best life preserver is one that someone will wear. Period.

I own a manual inflatable PFD, not so much for the lower maintenance and cost, but I want to decide when to inflate it.

Edited by - on

Geoff Warner
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Response Posted - 02/27/2012 : 20:33:20

Are you still looking for replacement bobbins "pill cages" for the West Marine 4000?

I need some too, my local WM can get them, plus a big shipping charge. let me know

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 02/27/2012 : 21:40:40

I bought my auto-inflatable because I almost always single hand and when my wife goes she would never be able to get back to me.

Mine is a Mustang and I wear it everytime I go out summer or winter. It is very comfortable to wear for long periods. If for some reason I get knocked out and overboard I want them to at least be able to find my body.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 02/27/2012 : 21:43:01

When I asked at my local WM for just the pills/cages, they gave me the Halkey-Roberts pills. They assumed all their auto-inflates used the same brand re-arming kit. As far as I know, WM only sells the Secumar re-arming kit and not the separate "blister Pack" that Secumar distributes overseas. I considered buying the Blister pack but decided instead to order a re-arming kit from Defender. Defender sells it for $20 and WM sells it for ~ $37 !

I already received my re-arming kit from Defender and after testing the WM 4000 PFD in the tub with the old re-arming kit, I then re-armed it with the new kit and it is ready to go again.

I may still consider getting a Blister Pack and if you know how to get it in the USA for a reasonable cost, I may be interested wen it comes time to replace the pill w/cage.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 02/27/2012 : 22:02:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 If for some reason I get knocked out and overboard I want them to at least be able to find my body.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If this is one of your primary concerns, getting knocked out while going overboard, then you should be using an inherently buoyant life vest as auto-inflatables can, and do, malfunction. That is why they are only recommended for those with good swimming skills so when they don't inflate, the wearer can keep him or herself afloat while they manually inflate the vest.

Edited by - dlucier on 02/27/2012 22:03:08

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 02/28/2012 : 04:36:35

Not to become repetitious but I think it is worth re-emphasizing why these inflatable PFDs are worth purchasing whether manual or auto-inflate types. Like many of you, I have been into sailing for many, many years. Except for when I owned a small 13' Banshee (similar to the Laser), all boats larger than that I never wore the boxy PFD or the vest style PFDs. They just seemed so cumbersome and the Coast Guard did not require the wearing of them only that they be accessible. As a result, the PFDs being somewhat cumbersome and for the 99.9% of the times boating high above the water in a substantial sized boat not normally prone to capsizing, I always had the PFDs close by but not worn. Then I decided to try one of the inflatable PFDs. The USCG reqmts are that if you rely on an inflatable PFD without one the regular vest style or boxy style PFDs onboard or "accessible", then you must wear the inflatable PFD. Since I have the regular PFDs onboard all the time and not only accessible but readily accessible since I always have them in the cockpit area (usually stored against the transom under the tiller), there is no need for me to wear the inflatable PFD all the time. However, once you use one and see how non-cumbersome they are, you get use to wearing one. It is then habit forming to the same extent as always casting off your docklines when leaving the slip. Given this radical shift from never wearing a PFD to always wearing a PFD, the benefits of purchasing a inflatable PFD whether manual or auto-inflate, in my opinion, completely outweighs the benefit of relying on the regular PFDs alone. the fact is that many if not all of us have the regular PFDs onboard which then meets the USCG requirements but also owning and wearing an inflatable PFD is the over-riding reason to make the purchase IF you are one that normally does not wear a regular PFD. Although not safety related, I would compare the shift to getting an inflatable PFD as somewhat similar to years ago when car buyers would decide whether or not to get air conditioning as an option. Once you go with a car with air-conditioning, there generally was no way of going back to a car without one. The change was so significant, that the default these days is practiacally all cars to come standard with air-conditioning. You still have a switch and can decide not to use it. In regards to PFDs, I would think all that have inflatable PFDs and wear them also have the regular PFDs onboard as well. I think it is common knowledge that the majority of boaters (except perhaps for those that have very small open hull boats) never wear their PFDs and many, hopefully at least have them readily accessible which I know is not always the case. If you never wear a regular PFD, my recommendation is make the plunge into getting an inflatable PFD. If you become like most and switch from a non-wearer to always wearing a PFD, then it is worth the expense. However, if you are use to wearing a regular PFD, then no need to purchase an inflatable PFD. But how many of you actually wear a regular PFD ? and consider that you are from a group that regularly participates in a boating forum...a relatively informed boater compared to the many on the water that are not clued into anything remotely related to boater's safety.

Edited by - OLarryR on 02/28/2012 04:39:13

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