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Loose footed sail?

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NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/28/2011 : 09:33:32

Can I use my old main as a loose footed mainsail by just not putting the foot in the slot in the boom and using my outhaul to tighten the foot?

1998 Catalina 250WK
Ravaging
Albemarle Sound,NC

I spent most of my money on boats and beer, the rest I just wasted.

Edited by - on

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2011 : 10:16:22

sails (footed .vs. non) are different shapes. bolt rope footed mains have a "pouch" built in to create the sail-shape needed. what is your reason for wanting to have loose-footed?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2011 : 10:34:16

I would wonder if the clew of a bolt-rope-footed main is reinforced as well as a main built to be loose-footed. The force at the clew, both horizontally and vertically (due to no support along the boom) will probably be substantially greater with the loose foot. With the bolt rope in, there's essentially no upward pull on the clew eye.

Just my suspicion...

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/28/2011 10:42:49

JeanAndre
Navigator

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USA
224 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2011 : 15:45:47

Hi Patrick, Hi Dave,

I have a loose footed main on my boat, the sail is not held by the outhaul at the clew, what secures the sail to the boom is a metal slug that slides on the boom track. The outhaul is there just to control sail shape.
Plus the sail foot has "some extra fabric" that makes it fuller when you slack the outhaul but folds tight and flat when you tighten the outhaul.
Maybe you can get your sail recut or transformed to a loose footed at Sailcare (sailcare.com)

Hope this helps

Cheers

Edited by - JeanAndre on 12/28/2011 15:47:52

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2011 : 19:04:00

Jean André--of course! You jarred my memory. (I've been messing around with little, classic boats too much recently.) A metal slug, would be important, due to the concentrated forces there.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2011 : 21:32:29

A metal slug is not entirely necessary. A short piece of strong 1/4" line through the clew and tied around the boom accomplishes the same result, although it will stretch a little depending on how well it is tied. I've seen both methods used effectively.

Edited by - dmpilc on 12/28/2011 21:34:00

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 12/29/2011 : 08:35:46

Slug, rope, or whatever, I'd still be concerned about the clew "triangle" being adequately robust when it wasn't constructed for loose-footing.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 12/29/2011 : 09:07:22

Let's see a photo of the foot of your sail! Here's the clew of my loose-footed main.

You can see 5 triangular layers of dacron overlapping on this side at the clew plus a dacron strap sewn in above the cringle. It's an Ullman sail. I think the other side looks the same, so that's 10 extra layers of dacron sewn onto the clew of the sail!

Edited by - on

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2011 : 05:59:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ape-X
 sails (footed .vs. non) are different shapes. bolt rope footed mains have a "pouch" built in to create the sail-shape needed. what is your reason for wanting to have loose-footed?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I thought I could get better sail shape with my old sail. It always looks like it s set up for power and I cannot flatten it for pointing.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2011 : 08:26:05

Notice on John's photo that the reinforcing layers extend well up the leech of the sail.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2011 : 08:27:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NCBrew
 
I thought I could get better sail shape with my old sail. It always looks like it s set up for power and I cannot flatten it for pointing.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If your main sail is old and you can't flatten it using all of the controls available, it may be a bit baggy which will lessen your ability to reduce the draft or effectively shape the sail. If this is the case, going loose footed is not going to make a difference.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2011 : 08:30:09

If your boltrope main doesn't have one, add a flattening reef. That will allow you to flatten the sail a bit. The flattening reef is a cringle about 6-8" above the clew. You can just barely see it in the pic below:

When utilized, it flattens out the "pocket" at the foot of the sail while still fully hoisted.
BTW, I don't have roller reefing on the headsail. That's a wire pennant between the tack of the sail and the bow fitting. I like to use it because it allows me better visibility, especially useful when singlehanding.

Edited by - dmpilc on 12/30/2011 08:41:44

buzzardsolo
Deckhand

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USA
18 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2011 : 09:31:14

NCBrew,

I've got the same issue. My (original) boltrope mainsail has a big pouch along the foot. Other posters have described it as a shelf foot, but no amount of outhaul tension can flatten it.

I used to think the sail was stretched (blown out), but I took a good look at it before stowing it away in the fall. The foot of the sail has a significant convex curvature. When it's attached to a boom with (obviously) no curvature, it results in the baggy pouch.

My old main probably has some stretch, but there's no way that all this excess pouch is due to stretch. Apparently, Catalina designed these mains with very full, shelf foots.

I've also thought about using it loose-footed, but I share the concerns of the other posters with regard to the forces on the clew. The only solution I've been able to come up with is to simply reef earlier to flatten the sail.

ERM

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2011 : 10:39:38

buzzardsolo, a mainsail with a shelf foot is fairly uncommon on a C25, because the shelf foot is a feature that is primarily used by racers, although it's useful for racers and cruisers alike. I raced my shelf footed mainsail against loose footed mainsails, and never saw an indication that the loose footed sails had the slightest performance advantage over shelf footed sails. IMO, the loose footed sail has become popular for many reasons, but mostly for two reasons. First, the loose footed sail is easier and cheaper to build, and sailmakers have promoted them for that reason. Secondly, by adjusting the outhaul tension, you can give a loose footed mainsail a deep shelf-like shape, similar to a racing shelf foot. That shelf provides power in light air. There was no way that the standard, old style sail with an attached foot could be adjusted to give it a shelf. In short, if you have a mainsail with a shelf foot, there is no significant advantage between your sail and a loose footed sail. If you have a shelf footed sail, my suggestion is to use it as it was designed, with the attached foot. It will work at least as well as a loose footed sail. My boat, with it's shelf footed mainsail, could foot faster and point higher than any boat it ever encountered with a loose footed mainsail.

As others have said, a sail with a shelf foot should also have a flattening reef. The flattening reef is simply a grommet situated about 1 foot above the clew of the sail. To tuck in the flattening reef, you simply ease the mainsheet, pull the outboard end of the boom up to the flattening reef grommet and cleat the reef line, and then re-trim the mainsheet. You can tuck in the flattening reef really fast, like in 5-10 seconds. It removes the deep shelf in the foot of the sail. You can use the same cheek block for the flattening reef as you use for your first full reef. A flattening reef is an option on a racing sail, so it's possible that the sail could haver been ordered without one. If yours doesn't have one, I would think it could be added for a reasonable cost.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 12/31/2011 10:46:16

glivs
Admiral

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USA
836 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2011 : 11:54:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> The flattening reef is simply a grommet situated about 1 foot above the clew of the sail. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Interesting...on my main sail there is a cringle about one foot above the tack that I sometimes use with a Cunningham control to move the sail pocket forward. I've always referred to it as a flattening reef....apparently incorrectly. Still learning.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2011 : 12:08:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by glivs
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> The flattening reef is simply a grommet situated about 1 foot above the clew of the sail. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Interesting...on my main sail there is a cringle about one foot above the tack that I sometimes use with a Cunningham control to move the sail pocket forward. I've always referred to it as a flattening reef....apparently incorrectly. Still learning.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's the cunningham. Apparently you're using it correctly - just calling it by the wrong name.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 01/01/2012 : 17:52:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by buzzardsolo
 NCBrew,

I've got the same issue. My (original) boltrope mainsail has a big pouch along the foot. Other posters have described it as a shelf foot, but no amount of outhaul tension can flatten it.

I used to think the sail was stretched (blown out), but I took a good look at it before stowing it away in the fall. The foot of the sail has a significant convex curvature. When it's attached to a boom with (obviously) no curvature, it results in the baggy pouch.

My old main probably has some stretch, but there's no way that all this excess pouch is due to stretch. Apparently, Catalina designed these mains with very full, shelf foots.

I've also thought about using it loose-footed, but I share the concerns of the other posters with regard to the forces on the clew. The only solution I've been able to come up with is to simply reef earlier to flatten the sail.

ERM
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
My main has the same shape as yours. I thought it was just blown out but now that you mention it, there's no way the sail could have that much stretch.

My main is no where near as flat as the picture in JohnP's post above and yes I understand his is a loose footed.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/01/2012 : 18:33:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by buzzardsolo
 NCBrew,

I've got the same issue. My (original) boltrope mainsail has a big pouch along the foot. Other posters have described it as a shelf foot, but no amount of outhaul tension can flatten it.

I used to think the sail was stretched (blown out), but I took a good look at it before stowing it away in the fall. The foot of the sail has a significant convex curvature. When it's attached to a boom with (obviously) no curvature, it results in the baggy pouch.

My old main probably has some stretch, but there's no way that all this excess pouch is due to stretch. Apparently, Catalina designed these mains with very full, shelf foots.

I've also thought about using it loose-footed, but I share the concerns of the other posters with regard to the forces on the clew. The only solution I've been able to come up with is to simply reef earlier to flatten the sail.

ERM
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
My main has the same shape as yours. I thought it was just blown out but now that you mention it, there's no way the sail could have that much stretch.

My main is no where near as flat as the picture in JohnP's post above and yes I understand his is a loose footed.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> One way you can tell for sure whether the sail has a racing shelf foot is by looking at the pocket - you should see that a piece of fabric has been stitched into it to create the deep shelf. The fabric that creates the shelf is cut on a distinct curve.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 01/01/2012 18:34:53

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2012 : 08:27:45

From UK-Halsey:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Shelf Foot and Loose Foot

The Shelf-Foot and Loose-Foot constructions are options that allow us to add a substantial degree of extra fullness in the lower portion of the mainsail in order to improve racing performance on reaches and runs. In very light air, the improved performance is achieved even to windward. The extra fullness is removed by tightening the outhaul. When the outhaul is eased, the sail maintains an airfoil shape down to the boom. With the Shelf-Foot option, a light piece of material connects the sail to the boom. With the outhaul eased, the connecting material unfolds and forms a shelf between the bottom of the main and the boom. When the outhaul is pulled tight, the shelf closes up and lays against the side of the boom.

Loose-Foot construction does away with the shelf material. The sail is only attached to the boom at the tack and clew. This attachment method is equally as strong as that of the foot attached to the boom. Many boats are switching to Loose-Footed mains because they make it easier to bend on your mainsail and to remove the sail from the boom — and it's less expensive.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2012 : 08:59:47

Pulling the outhaul tight does flatten the sail, but I think most people who have used a dacron, shelf-footed mainsail would agree that it doesn't flatten it enough in strong winds. Even when pulled tight, if the wind is especially strong, the dacron stretches enough to take a deeper shape than is desirable. In those conditions, the only way you can get it really flat is with a flattening reef. I haven't used a laminated sail with a shelf foot, but would imagine that merely tightening the outhaul, without using a flattening reef, might work better, because laminated sailcloth doesn't stretch nearly as much as dacron.

Edited by - on

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