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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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symmeterical spinnaker

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Johnnybob
1st Mate

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32 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/16/2012 : 07:24:29

There is a symmetrical spinnaker advertised on craigslist approx 200 miles from where I live. It seems to be a good deal at $350 for "spinnaker with turtle bag, sheets and Forespar spinnaker pole all in Excellent condition" I single hand about half the time and sail with the admiral the other half, while willing to lend a hand she prefers to just enjoy he ride. I prefer to defer to her preferences. I've been reading in the past postings about the difference between the symmetrical and asymmetrical sails and it sounds like the the asymmetrical sail is more user friendly ( I've never flown either or have been onboard while one is flown) I'm a relative newby but have been enjoying the basics on my 250 TR WK for about 4 months and feel ready to expand my experience level a bit. I probably would not be considering this just yet but it seems like a good deal and I'm reluctant to pass it up. Is it too much sail for a rookie to manage by myself? I sail out of the Beaufort river into Port Royal sound and a south east wind is quite common and I find myself on a dead run commonly when returning to the mooring. I've read all of the previous posting on the 250 still available and have learned a great deal about the boat and made several mods based on the great info posted here. Don't you wish everything you bought came with a support service like this one.
Any opinions would be most welcome.
Thanks

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2012 : 07:36:54

Another option to improve downwind performance would be a whisker pole with your existing genoa. It might be a little easier to handle than an asym. I bought one last fall, but wasn't able to use it because I didn't have any DDW tacks in the last couple weeks of sailing.

I'm not sure if a spin pole can be used as a whisker pole, but for $350 you might find that the pole itself is worth the money even if the asym is too much trouble.

Edited by - TakeFive on 02/16/2012 07:42:58

Johnnybob
1st Mate

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32 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2012 : 08:17:28

Thanks Rick, It's actually a symmetrical sail I'm considering. Which I think is a littler more involved than the asymmetrical. I have a whisker pole that came with the boat and it is very useful on a run. My head-sail is what I believe to be a 110. Some of my sailing is in fairly light air so the extra umph from the spinnaker would be welcome.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2012 : 09:29:43

I agree that a symmetrical spinnaker in excellent condition with pole and sheets, etc. for $350. is a very good deal. Nevertheless, although I have seen two skilled people fly one, realistically, for most people it takes a minimum of three fairly knowledgeable people to fly one. A symmetrical spinnaker is complicated to rig and fly, and they are the absolute devil to fly in gusty winds. If you don’t have enough skill and crew to fly it, it will occupy storage space in your boat, and never be used.

Better alternatives for downwind and light air would be a whisker pole and genoa, as Rick suggested, or an assymetrical spinnaker (Also referred to as a cruising chute or Gennaker.) If you have a cruising chute and a spinnaker sock (also referred to as a snuffer, or chute scoop) and an autopilot, you can fly a cruising chute singlehanded. If you don’t have an autopilot, but have one person to steer the boat, you can fly a cruising chute. In addition, a symmetrical spinnaker is mostly a downwind sail. You can’t reach very well with it. By comparison, a cruising chute can be used for reaching much closer to the wind than a symmetrical spinnaker. Thus, a cruising chute will be easier to fly with fewer, less skilled crew, and it will be useful in a wider range of conditions, from deep downwind to a fairly close reach.

This is a photo of my C&C35 close reaching with a cruising chute. If your course is a reach, it will provide much better speed than your genoa.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2012 : 10:12:15

Didn't I recently read here that somebody flies a symm as if it was an assym? Maybe Lucier???? They attach the tack at the bow stem fitting, maybe using some kind of pennant and simply sheet it like a big genny???????

Edited by - John Russell on 02/16/2012 10:14:46

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2012 : 12:37:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 Didn't I recently read here that somebody flies a symm as if it was an assym? Maybe Lucier???? They attach the tack at the bow stem fitting, maybe using some kind of pennant and simply sheet it like a big genny???????
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You can do that, but you might not be able to fly the symmetrical spinnaker in as much wind as a cruising chute. For example, my symmetrical spinnaker is a light air chute made of 1/2 oz. sailcloth. A medium air symmetrical spinnaker is usually made of 3/4 oz. sailcloth or heavier. Flying a symmetrical spinnaker pole-less can place more stress on the sail than flying it with a pole if you try reaching with it. If you reach with a light air spinnaker in too much wind, it's easy to over stress it and damage it.

By comparison, my cruising chute is made of 3/4 oz. sailcloth, and is better suited for reaching. In other words, you need to know the weight of the sailcloth, and, if it's 1/2 oz., don't use it for reaching in too much wind. Keep in mind that downwind is the slowest point of sail. As the boat hardens up on the wind, the boat speed increases, because the sail is generating more power. As the amount of power increases, the amount of force exerted on the sailcloth also increases.

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PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2012 : 15:46:19

I only fly my symmetrical spin when racing or if it's light air and I have at least one very experienced crew member aboard. When racing we have one person on foredeck to handle the pole when jibing and take downs and another person on sheets. Flying a spin properly requires constant adjustment. Its probably a bit much for just you and the wife.

I don't believe the spin pole is long enough for your head sail.

All that being said, if you ever consider racing you'll really want a spin and that sounds like a terrific price for all the gear. You might buy it now to use later.

I learned to fly spin doing the beer can races on Wednesday nights, maybe you could catch a ride with someone who flys one.

If the wind is north of 20, we typically won't fly the spin, it can be dangerous and broach your boat.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2012 : 15:46:57

Another disadvantage of a symmetrical on a reach is that it is (generally) cut much fuller than an asym, so when sailing closer than a broad reach, it'll heel the boat without providing much driving force. An asym/cruising chute gives better flow with the apparent wind abeam or forward, and is a nice option for reaching in light air.

You didn't mention the dimensions of the symmetrical or the pole... Are you satisfied it "fits"?

I'll suggest one more system to go with an autopilot for setting a foresail single-handed: jacklines, harness and tether.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2012 : 18:06:00

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Johnnybob
1st Mate

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32 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2012 : 17:29:40

Thank you all for the input. I've decided to pass on the sym and hold out for a asm when the time is right. Steve I'm sure you're right after frustrating myself the sail would probably become excess baggage. Great picture of your chute on a reach I thought that spinnakers were only good for running and broad reaching, you look to be sailing pretty close to the wind. If anyone is interested in the sail it was posted on craigslist in Columbia SC on the 15th I'm not sure of the dimensions but it was used on a Cat 25 Tall Rig.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2012 : 18:01:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Johnnybob
 Thank you all for the input. I've decided to pass on the sym and hold out for a asm when the time is right. Steve I'm sure you're right after frustrating myself the sail would probably become excess baggage. Great picture of your chute on a reach I thought that spinnakers were only good for running and broad reaching, you look to be sailing pretty close to the wind. If anyone is interested in the sail it was posted on craigslist in Columbia SC on the 15th I'm not sure of the dimensions but it was used on a Cat 25 Tall Rig.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> The boat was sailing at about 50 deg. to the apparent wind, according to the AWI, which surprised me, but I could have trimmed the sails a little better and perhaps improved that a tiny bit. That was the first time I reached with the assym, and you can see that my newly-installed lazy jacks were too tight, and putting a big wrinkle in the mainsail.

I would urge you to look for an opportunity to learn how to fly a symmetrical spinnaker. It's very complicated and will take awhile to learn, but, if you learn, and if you can find the crew to help you fly it, it's really a joy to sail. Until then, it will be much easier to learn to fly an assym.

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