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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Auto-Inflate PFD's

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JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/18/2012 : 22:53:10

I showed my wife the Defender sale on PFD's. Her reaction was "I don't trust it to auto-inflate". Has anyone heard of any instances where a properly maintained auto-inflate life vest didn't?

- Jim
Formerly of 1984 C25 named Dragon Wing

NOTE: In my case, PLEASE don't confuse stars/number of posts with actual knowledge. On any topic.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2012 : 23:21:10

Seems like Paul did some experimentation on this in his swimming pool a couple of years back with old pills in his.

I had mine auto-inflate from humidity years ago. I thought someone had broken into the boat until I figured out what had happened. I keep rearming kits for both of ours on the boat in vacuum sealed bags to keep the pills dry. It'd be nice if we had identical arming kits, but I bought my PFD years before I met Rita and they don't make my model any more, so we had to buy a different one for her.

This may not be all that comforting to your wife, but you can always manually inflate the vest if it doesn't auto inflate. A few puffs will gain enough buoyancy so you can keep your head above water fairly easily until you get it completely blown up. Not much good if the boom knocks you senseless and off the boat or you're not a good swimmer though. If it's relatively cold out, Rita will wear a regular ski vest instead of her auto inflating PFD. If it's warm, the regular vest is too hot to wear (black & thick). She's not a good swimmer, but of all the things she likes to worry about, her PFD isn't one of them.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2012 : 05:09:54

I had a belt-type inflatable pfd that came with the boat that failed. It can happen, but it's rare.

The better, safer choice is unquestionably a standard, non-inflating pfd, but they can be uncomfortable and bulky, especially in hot, humid weather. The inflatable gives each of us a choice, but the price we pay for greater comfort is a very slight decrease in the level of safety. If an emergency happens, you have to trust that it will inflate automatically. I have both types, and usually use the standard type, but use the inflatable for racing and when it's uncomfortably hot. I also use the inflatable in rough weather, because mine has a safety harness incorporated into it. If I were you, I would urge her to let me buy her an auto inflatable, and to keep it on the boat for her to use in the event the standard one becomes uncomfortable, and she chooses to use it. If it's there, it's likely that she'll try it sometime, to escape the discomfort of the standard pfd, and if she gains trust in the inflatable, she'll use it more frequently. If you have an inflatable, you can choose to use it for increased comfort. If you don't have one, you have no choice. If she doesn't use it, it will still be available to use as a spare pfd for yourself or a guest.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 02/19/2012 05:17:33

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2012 : 09:18:47

I know the bobbin/pill is to be changed out every year or two...well mine has not been changed out in over 5 years ! I just bought a new Mustang Auto-Inflate PFD w/hyrostatic valve via the Defender Sale that is ongoing. I have my old WM 4000 PFD at home and plan is to tub test it today or tomorrow. Then I will clean it up, re-arm it and my spouse will use it rather than just relying on the accessible life vests onboard.

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2012 : 09:28:02

My auto-inflate PFD can also be inflated by pulling the tab manually the same way the standard models work. It also has an inflation tube that you can blow into should the first two systems fail. This kind of redudancy may well allay your wife's fears about inflation. Remember, inflatables are only for adults. Kids need the hot, cumbersome, uncomfotable kind. Maybe that's why many kids don't like to go sailing??????

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2012 : 09:32:54

Don't all auto-inflates also have a ripcord and a manual inflation tube?

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2012 : 09:41:01

I assume so Dave.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2012 : 10:48:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 Don't all auto-inflates also have a ripcord and a manual inflation tube?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I haven't seen one that doesn't. But don't trust me...

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2012 : 12:10:17

I've never seen one that didn't have the ripcord either. However, as Dave indicated, that's hardly definitive.

There's a guy on Seattle CL that has three of the waist band type for sale for $120, two are brand new, and one is showing "red" on the arming device. If you're interested I can find the ad for you. Seems like I paid more than that for a single "regular" type with harness for each of ours.

I have no experience with the waist band type, do you have to pull them over your head before they're inflated? Seems kind of iffy, especially if you're not a good swimmer.

Here's the [url="http://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/boa/2858926278.html"]CL ad[/url]. They're not auto-inflate type, they're manual, which means the third one has probably had it's rip cord pulled to discharge the CO2 cylinder. About $15-$20 to rearm if I remember correctly. If you're interested in them and they're sketchy about dealing with out of town people, I might be able to get them to ship to me. Enumclaw is about a 90 minute drive from here.

Edited by - delliottg on 02/19/2012 12:15:15

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2012 : 12:27:47

Excess humidity and temperature will cause them to auto-inflate. Mine, from Cabella's, went off in my locked up car one hot, humid summer day. At $20 per pop (pun intended), I don't leave it in my car anymore.
One other thing, inflatables don't count as a PFD if you get stopped by the Coasties unless you are wearing them.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2012 : 14:10:43

Yes - My WM 4000 also has a manual tab you pull to inflate and a tube to self-inflate. Anyway, I tub tested it a few minutes ago and the good news is that after 5+ years the auto-inflate worked like a charm after being submerged for about 4-5 seconds. I checked it for leaks and there were initially some bubbles but they turned out to be just from some areas under the PFD and after moving it about a bit, the bubbles from trapped pockets underneath stopped. No leaks in the PFD !! I have an extra CO2 cartridge assy from when I bought the PFD but the real task is finding where I can buy just the pill/pill cage. The WM4000 which is a Stearns product is one of the few back when it was made that came with a Secumar Arming Kit and most that were sold back then and even now come with the way more popular Halkey-Roberts Arming Kit. Recommendation if buying your first Auto-Inflate PFD, check what arming kit & Model Number it comes with and see if it is common amongst other auto-inflate PFDs. If it is, then chances are that years down the road, WM or others will have the Re-arming kit readily available. The Secumar re-arming kit is european and getting just the pill/pill cage is not as easy as one would think.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2012 : 19:08:22

Waistband inflatable deploy and are donned inflated. P?S tests found that it could be awkward and an issue for less than a calm, strong swimmer.

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JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2012 : 11:14:48

Thanks! I had a feeling the PFD's had been tested pretty thoroughly before they went on the market. What I may suggest is that my wife get an auto-inflate for "every day" use and, when she feels the need for something more substantial, that she switch to a vest-type.

Edited by - on

DavidCrosby
Navigator

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USA
240 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2012 : 12:23:48

I bought a Stearns Auto Inflate PFD with a harness prior to doing two offshore trips. I had my PFD in my checked luggage. TSA took my cartridge and left a note in my baggage. I tried to buy a replacement in St. Maarten and could not get the proper cartridge. I was disappointed but not overly concerned since the boat owner had numerous auto inflate PFDs w/harness. I just borrowed his. When we arrived in Bermuda, I again went shopping for a cartridge and struck out. When we arrived in Newport, RI, I was able to buy what I needed. However, I was flying to the BVI the next day to meet up with my boat for a transatlantic crossing. I did not bother buying again in the US, figuring TSA would get another cartridge. Once in Tortola, I shopped around and could not get the proper cartridge. We then sailed to St. Thomas to do our provisioning. I could not buy one anywhere on St. Thomas. I called Stearns looking for a location on the island that I may have overlooked. They said they would gladly overnight a new cartridge to me. Then quickly realized that they could not overnight it for the same reason that I originally lost mine.

I then simply decided, that I would buy a new inflatable PFD with harness. Those were not available on the island. In the end, I put it on, pulled the manual inflate tube to see what it takes to inflate by mouth. A quick three puffs and it was good to go. I decided that I would just have to manually inflate if I ended up in the water.

I continued my search as the trip progressed. I searched for a Stearns cartridge in the Azores without luck. I then searched again in Scotland and was still unsuccessful.

When the trip was over, Stearns and West Marine heard about my ordeal. In the end, I got my money back and was allowed to keep the PFD.

So, to answer the question of auto inflation reliability - I have no idea and I hope to never find out. I have a nice vest type PFD and that is what I wear on a regular basis, even when it is 100+ out.

Note: the 33g CO2 Cartridge was available every place I looked. The Stearns cartridge has an adapter on the end that one would think the 33g cylinder could be screwed into, which is not the case.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2012 : 14:26:58

In regards to the WM4000 (Stearns 1443) that was sold years ago, it comes with a Secumar 4001 Arming device which Stearns Re-Arming kit is called #0924. I have thoroughly scoured the internet w/following results. In the USA, they only sell the Secumar 4001 Re-arming kit as a one cylinder with one pill/cage combo. The Secumar european website indicates that a "Blister Pack" containing 4 pill/cage combos (no CO2 cartridge) is available but it appears to be only available from european countries for approximately 14-15 Euro. The cost (and I am not sure if they even ship to the USA) would then have to add shipping cost and for many, a charge card internatonal fee for charging out of the USA. You then put your trust to whatever european internet seller you decide upon. Too much hassle. I do not believe Secumar sells the Blister Pack or other products direct. They seem to sell thru dealers/distributors.

In the USA, there are many that do sell the Secumar Re-arming kit but costs are all over the place. For example, WM sells the CO2 Cartridge with the plastic adapter/indicator attached to it w/1 pill/cage combo for $40. Defender sells the same thing for $20 ! No one sells just the pill/cage separately and that is what I wanted since I have an extra CO2 cartridge with plastic adapter/indicator that came with my PFD. Based on the above....I ordered the Secumar 4001 Re-arming kit from Defender. I wish I had thought of that when I ordered my new Mustang PFD just a few days earlier - I would have saved the addl shipping costs. Still...WM $40 and Defender $20 ?? Wow - What a difference in cost !

By the way, seeing how I just bought a new PFD from Defender at about $70-$80 less expensive than WM, I checked out the cost of it's re-arming kit. It takes a Hydrostatic Valve Re-arming kit that is recommended be replaced every 5 years. It is made by Hammer which WM sells for about ~ $79 and Defender sells for about ~ $56.

I do buy quite a bit from WM but it definitely pays to check out the cost of some of the purchases and then decide the local store benefit vs cost differential. In any case, it looks like most if not all of these new Hydrostatic Valve Auto-Inflate PFDs come with the same Hammer re-arming kit.

One last thing - There is a benefit to getting justb the pills/cages vs the whole re-arming kit. For example, there is my case where I had an extra CO2 cartridge and only needed the pill/cage. But the other instance is that while it is a good idea to test these PFDs periodically, those that want to test infrequently or manually but want to replace the pill frequently based on mfrs recommendations, that is when being able to change just the pill is not such an expensicve deal. Halkey-Roberts re-arming kits, many only require replacement of the pill and not the cage. Same goes for the Secumar 3001 Re-arming kit. In these two cases, Halkey sells via WM and others a bunch of replacement pills (ie. 10) for about $20. WM does not sell the Secumar 3001 pills separately but I do believe there may be someUSA Internet sellers that sell the 10 pill pack for the Secumar 3001 otherwise, it is offered internatioally. The Secumar 4001 Blister Pack of 4 pills/cages would be of benefit but only sold internationally.

Edited by - OLarryR on 02/20/2012 14:41:54

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2012 : 15:06:31

If I had to spend more than $25 for a rearming kit, I'd say screw it an wear a standard PFD! They are not THAT uncomfortable.

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