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PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2012 : 06:44:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 The things that concern with me using a furler all the time are:
1) somewhat reduced performance compared to hank-on
2) limited reduction of sail area is possible (you can basically reduce a 135 to 100, but not down to the size of a storm jib, right?)

We'll get some more sailing experience before we make a final decision, so I probably won't buy new jibs anytime soon. Used ones don't worry me as much because I can sell them again later without such a huge hit to the wallet.

I can also talk to CDI about what hardware I have and see if it is possible to buy the missing bits to build a complete system again and what that might cost.

Finally we need some sailing time to see how into racing vs cruising we get, so how much these little performance things matter to us.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The hit on performance is minimal and you can claim it against your PHRF. There are times when it's been so heavy I only unrolled enough for a blade and I was thankful to have it. Even the VOR boats are using roller furling!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2012 : 07:38:38

The desirability of a furler depends, to a large extent, on your sailing venue. If you sail in coastal waters, or on a big lake or bay, a furler is great, because, if a big wind comes up and you have to reduce sail area, you don't have to crawl out on a wet, heaving foredeck to pull down and lash a big hanked-on genoa. You can just pull on a line in the cockpit and roll it up. If you sail on a small lake, that's much less of a concern, because you probably won't continue sailing through the storm. You'll probably just take down the sails and motor a mile or two to your marina, or to a sheltered area, and wait for the storm to pass.

A furling genoa is significantly smaller in sail area than a hanked-on, deck-sweeping genoa, and accordingly it can't generate as much power, so, if you go to a furling genoa, you are giving up significant power.

There is a compromise between a furler and racing sails, however. For cruising and casual sailing, you can use a furling dacron genoa on the furler. For racing, you can use a deck-sweeping, fully race-cut genoa, running the luff up the furler's slot, and attaching the tack of the sail to a separate tack attachment mounted in the deck. You won't be able to roll up the racing sail, but you will have all the same sail area as any other racing sail, and it's shape will be as perfect as any other racing sail.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2012 : 11:40:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 The things that concern with me using a furler all the time are:
1) somewhat reduced performance compared to hank-on
2) limited reduction of sail area is possible (you can basically reduce a 135 to 100, but not down to the size of a storm jib, right?)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Actually, you get a better shape when reefing down to storm jib size as the belly has been rolled up leaving the flatter part of the sail, but if conditions are such they warrant a storm jib, then you probably shouldn't be on the water as the wind is likely hitting north of 30-35+.

Is the sail area of a furling genoa significantly smaller than a hank on? Using dimensions from North Sails for both their RF and hank on 150 genoas, the hank on has 241 sqft and the RF has 231 sqft.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2012 : 16:02:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 The things that concern with me using a furler all the time are:
1) somewhat reduced performance compared to hank-on
2) limited reduction of sail area is possible (you can basically reduce a 135 to 100, but not down to the size of a storm jib, right?)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Actually, you get a better shape when reefing down to storm jib size as the belly has been rolled up leaving the flatter part of the sail, but if conditions are such they warrant a storm jib, then you probably shouldn't be on the water as the wind is likely hitting north of 30-35+.

Is the sail area of a furling genoa significantly smaller than a hank on? Using dimensions from North Sails for both their RF and hank on 150 genoas, the hank on has 241 sqft and the RF has 231 sqft.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I would think a 150 is a 150 if it was initially designed as a roller furled sail. If you take a a hank on 150 and want to have it recut to a roller furler, you will lose some sail area. That comment confused me as well. Maybe I don't know what I don't know. I had a 150, had it recut for roller furling, and ended up with about a 130. Perfect for around here and a tall rig.

Edited by - PCP777 on 03/15/2012 16:07:15

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2012 : 16:32:30

Since the 135, 150, 170 etc. designations are the result of a calculation involving the LP and J dimensions rather than square footage, I suspect that it is possible to come up with different square footages between 2 properly cut 150's if one is a hank-on and the other is a roller furling sail, since the furler rides higher off the deck, especially if both are full-hoist sails. With 135's, you could compensate for the lost area at the bottom by going high up with the material, to a point. I'm not a sail maker, so this is just a reasoned rather than educated guess!
If I had to pick just one sail to buy for the furler on a tall rig, it would be a 135 without a doubt, because it should hold better shape when reduced to a 110 or smaller.

Edited by - dmpilc on 03/15/2012 16:36:50

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2012 : 18:44:14

I thought the 110, 135, 150, etc. was a percentage of the mainsail's square footage. That is, a 110 has 110% the surface area of the main. If that's correct (please see my footer), then a 150 would have essentially the same surface area regardless of whether it's a hank-on or a furler. You'll note, for example, that the 10 sq ft difference in the example above is really only a 4% increase in area. Might that matter in a race? Yeah, maybe.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2012 : 19:24:45

LP/J = % J is a foretriangle measurement from the mast to where the forestay intersects the shear, not a sail measurement. LP is a perpendicular line from the luff to the clew. Cutting a big wedge off the bottom of the sail but lengthening the sail to keep the LP the same will still make the sail a 150. Making the sail half as high would make it a much smaller 150. It is an odd measurement for a sail since area doesn't enter the calculation. It is strictly a measure of overlap.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 03/15/2012 19:26:24

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2012 : 19:26:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 I thought the 110, 135, 150, etc. was a percentage of the mainsail's square footage. That is, a 110 has 110% the surface area of the main.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Actually, the percentage of a genoa is not based on the area of a sail, but rather the luff perpendicular (LP) measurement in relation to the J dimension. The LP is the shortest distance from the clew to the luff of the headsail. If the LP measures out to be 15'9" and the J dimension is 10'6", then the LP is 1.5 times the J or 150 percent.

Edited by - dlucier on 03/15/2012 19:32:34

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2012 : 08:58:11

I gotta learn how to draw pictures like that!

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2012 : 10:08:24

Thanks!

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2012 : 10:50:22

This is an interesting discussion and the measurement info for the jib will be great to help me figure out what size I have for my existing jib (which I think is a 135%, but I'd like to double check).

My main and jib are off getting some minor repairs and I ordered a new main. I talked to the sail maker about switching to roller furling and he suggested that my jib is old enough that it isn't worth considering and that I should probably just buy a new jib too. With the other boat upgrades our budget is pretty tight, so I think I'll wait on that for another day.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2012 : 12:50:21

Have you tried any of teh used sail places? Like Bacon Sails? Sometimes they are an option instead of buying new.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2012 : 07:38:32

I had a heard an entirely different definition of head sail designation. a 100% being a head sail that comes back just to the mast, a 135% being 35% overlapping/past, 155% overlapping/past etc.

ha! The things you learn on this forum are awesome.

I will say this, unless you are hard core racing your boat, I would highly recommend roller furling. At the end of the day it sure is a bitch to un-hank the head sail and then flake it and bag it in the Texas heat. Now when we come in, we basically tie up the boat and step off, we have a new routine where my wife/crew is able to button everything up, like the main sail cover, as I drive the boat to the dock. We literally pull in, tie up the boat and step off.

The important thing is to get your boat out there, and that new main will help. I just replaced mine last season. Just remember that you do have an upgrade option that will make life so much easier for you and your crew whenever you have the funds.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2012 : 07:46:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Have you tried any of teh used sail places? Like Bacon Sails? Sometimes they are an option instead of buying new.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yup, I checked with about 20 used sail places. There weren't any great options for used mains for the tall rig (there were many more for the standard rig). I haven't looked for jibs or genoas much yet, I wanted to wait to see what our sail loft said about ours and will wait to make up my mind on roller furling.

The best option for used tall rig sails actually seemed to be a used J/24 sail, they are very similar in size (I think it was a little less P and a little more E). If I went that direction I'd have wanted to get one locally to try first.

I found a local loft (http://ballardsails.com) run by nice people with good prices, so I ordered a new main from them. It should be ready in 4 weeks, and they're coming down to measure the boat this week. They are also doing minor repairs on my genoa and enough repairs on my mainsail to keep me on the water in the meantime. If everything goes well and I want to go with a roller furler then I'll probably end up ordering a new genoa from them.

alex (off to sail now on a Catalina 36...not mine)

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2012 : 08:22:27

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2012 : 10:55:03

Being a hank-on guy, I bought a jib bag, made from Sunbrella that matches the mainsail cover, that the headsail goes into and stays hanked on. Coming in, we lower the headsail and main and motor in. The headsail is flaked on deck, S-folded up to the bow, the jib sheets are coiled and placed on top of the sail, and the whole thing is stuffed into the jib bag, which zips together around the forestay. The jib halyard is disconnected fron the headsail and attached to a D-ring at the back od the bag so the bag can be lifted off of the foredeck. When we go sailing again, all we have to do is remove the bag, reattach the halyard and thread the sheets, and the headsail is ready to go.
Not as efficient and easy as roller furling, but a lot better than removing and folding the headsail on the dock. One of the better purchases I've made. If the money had been there, I definitely would have gone with roller furling.

Edited by - dmpilc on 03/17/2012 11:03:52

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2012 : 14:16:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by PCP777
 I would think a 150 is a 150 if it was initially designed as a roller furled sail...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">A furler sail is cut with a higher clew, which sounds like it will have less area than a "deck sweeper". However, a 150% furler sail will also have a higher LP line, which means it will add some area to the overlap while it loses some in the foot compared to the deck-sweeping 150. In other words, the leech will be further aft from the luff. (Imagine on Don's drawing the same length LP going perpendicular from the luff to a higher clew.) I'm not sure of the implication on a beat, but off the wind, that might be an advantage--there's more pressure up high than at deck level.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/17/2012 14:21:47

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2012 : 19:41:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by PCP777
 I had a heard an entirely different definition of head sail designation. a 100% being a head sail that comes back just to the mast, a 135% being 35% overlapping/past, 155% overlapping/past etc.

ha! The things you learn on this forum are awesome.

I will say this, unless you are hard core racing your boat, I would highly recommend roller furling. At the end of the day it sure is a bitch to un-hank the head sail and then flake it and bag it in the Texas heat. Now when we come in, we basically tie up the boat and step off, we have a new routine where my wife/crew is able to button everything up, like the main sail cover, as I drive the boat to the dock. We literally pull in, tie up the boat and step off.

The important thing is to get your boat out there, and that new main will help. I just replaced mine last season. Just remember that you do have an upgrade option that will make life so much easier for you and your crew whenever you have the funds.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I agree with everything above.

It's like stinkpotting with all the advantages of a sailboat.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2012 : 19:46:10

David: Where did you get that bag? It sounds very handy.

I just got back from a wonderful day of sailing on Puget Sound (Shilshol up to Kingston on a Catalina 36) and look forward to getting my little 25 out on the water. The Cat36 did have roller furling, so now I've used it.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2012 : 06:11:07

Regarding clew height on roller furling sails, my previous head sail had a somewhat high clew as shown in the photo directly below where you can see its around boom height.

On my new genoa, the clew is considerably lower, about at the cabintop.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2012 : 08:39:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 ...On my new genoa, the clew is considerably lower, about at the cabintop...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">It looks like your sun-strip is Dacron... It might help that you don't have a Sunbrella strip, so the lower foot of the sail won't create create as fat a roll as you reef or furl.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2012 : 12:08:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 It looks like your sun-strip is Dacron... It might help that you don't have a Sunbrella strip, so the lower foot of the sail won't create create as fat a roll as you reef or furl.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, it's Dacron. I'm not a fan of Sunbrella covers.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2012 : 10:14:13

I bought the bag on Ebay, like this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HANK-ON-JIB-BAG-/310387286493?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&vxp=mtr&hash=item48448621dd

or
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FOREST-GREEN-JIB-BAG-OTHER-COLORS-AVAILABLE-/130611947215?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&vxp=mtr&hash=item1e691426cf

If you buy one, order it large enough to handle a 150 genoa.
Sorry, I don't remember the size of ours.

Edited by - dmpilc on 03/21/2012 10:25:05

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