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Bilge Pump

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hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/11/2012 : 05:57:30

I am getting ready to order an automatic bilge pump. I am considering the Rule 1100 automatic submersible from Defender. Do any of you have any comments/suggestions regarding the choice

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/11/2012 : 07:16:26

That is my fav pump.

I've used that pump for years and many others and I was very happy with it. Screw down the basket and snap the pump on. Easy to snap the pump off and clean the metal screen.

It does not have any electrical draw when not in use.

It you have some small amount of water collecting in the bilge it may not be the best as it takes about a 1/2 inch of water to get the float up and it going. It would be nice to have a lower area about the size of the pump to act as a "bilge" and keep the whole area it drains dry.

anyhoo.. the 3 electrical leads are ground, positive for manual switch on and positive for automatic pump.

You wire ground, fused switched, and fused unswitched and it is available all the time and on when switched on.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 04/11/2012 : 07:19:29

Careful with the basket the first times you try to remove the pump, make sure you spread the clips to release or you can break the basket.

Edited by - on

av8rOC
Navigator

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USA
121 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2012 : 17:05:31

Hey guys I've been thinking about adding an electric bilge on my boat as well. Is there a DIY online somewhere that would help with the install? In particular I'm trying to figure out if and how to tap into the existing bilge line (obviously downstream of the hand pump).

Thanks

Edited by - av8rOC on 04/11/2012 17:06:01

hewebb
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761 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 05:42:47

I have made the decision to order the Rule-Mate RM1100A pump. I had thought about placing the outlet in the cockpit area so I could see if it was running. Then I thought about running it to the existing outlet hose from the whale pump in the cockpit. If I T into the whale outlet hose will the whale pump keep the water from going back through the hose to the bilge or will I need a non-return valve in the line between the T and the Whale pump, or perhaps in both lines? I am thinking a complete separate system may be best. I just wanted to avoid drilling another hole in the boat. Your thoughts?

Edited by - on

JimGo
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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 05:59:50

I'd test the Rule-Mate pump to see if it provides back-flow protection. If it doesn't, I'd be inclined to put valves on both lines and "T" in just behind (i.e., closer to the outlet port) the whale pump. I don't think there's any point in putting a second hole in the boat.

Edited by - on

JAB
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 08:55:10

When I put in a Rule electric bilge pump---mounted on a glassed-in platform above the manual one's intake (like Don Casey recommends in his books and articles)---I thought about putting in a Y connection so's to use the existing transom through-hull.

Some discussion on SailNet brought up questions: back flow through the existing Whale manual pump?, the flow restriction that a non-return valve would introduce?, and do I want to put another hole in the hull? I came up with a different solution.

The secondary (emergency) electric bilge pump was routed to a through-hole into my cockpit just above the floor at the forward area. The scupper drains will handle any water. Besides, this is only a backup pump. And if my feet suddenly get wet, I know I have a problem!

Edited by - on

Drjohn71a
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USA
37 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 13:29:55

I just replaced the Attwood Sahara Pump/Switch combo (750) that was in the forward part of the keel bilge. The PO ran a separeate hose back with a through hull on the Starboard side of the stern exactly mirroring the hand pump outlet to Port. The Attwood electric pump only needs 3/4 inch hose, though, I believe. That particular pump fits snugly on the bilge floor just forward of the original equipment hand pump intake and both work fine.

You have to be careful selecting the Rule pumps, not that they are bad at all, but because many work on the principle of starting up every so many seconds or minutes to "test" for water in lieu of an old style switch which only comes on when the water level rises. This test cycling can run your battery down over a long storage time, so a true "switch" is the better choice to my thoughts.

I bought a couple of other brand name pumps before realizing why the PO had settled on that Attwood Sahara - if fits exactly and snugly in that forward open spot in the keel bilge.

Most of the pumps come with a very detailed wiring and installation manual, including the Attwood.

I would avoid tying into other lines for the bilge water outflow. A "Y" or "T" could cause big problems.

I should add that my previous boat had 4 of the Rule pumps, which do pump very well, but the ones I had kept cycling forever in testing for water. They probably have other models available.

John

Edited by - Drjohn71a on 04/12/2012 13:32:30

pastmember
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Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 17:10:05

I bought a bilge pump today for the first time in forever. Also from Defender.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 03:47:32

<< Rule 1100 automatic submersible >>

I just realized last night ( after a flyer for west Marine arrived ) that I have no idea if Hwebb is talking about the same pump.

My apologies.

SO I'd guess a better question might be..

Which specific pump as you asking about and how are you gonna use it.. Is your bilge wet or are you looking to pump it should you develop a leak.

My bilge stays dry, as I spend lots of time looking and fixing leaks. I've always wanted to add a bilge pump, but just as a back up should I start taking on water.

THe 1100 I use ( on a power boat )will blow out the line after runnning so backflow is not an issue with the through hull way above the waterline. IT does not have a long run to the through hull.

Edited by - redeye on 04/13/2012 03:56:00

redeye
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Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 04:13:54

<< many work on the principle of starting up every so many seconds or minutes to "test" for water >>

I also use one of the above pumps ( also rule ) on the same power boat. It works well also, but we have to keep the battery on a solar panel to make sure it stays charged. It does not appear to draw much from the battery nor did it seem to make any noise when it senses.

I've had up to three working bilge pumps on the power boat, but I'm down to two now. One far aft and one far forward.

I wish we had better feedback from the makers, but it appears we have to listen to each other on the internet nowadays...

So maybe Frank will tell us more about his new pump...

Edited by - redeye on 04/13/2012 04:14:10

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 05:03:46

Found this on Rule WEB site.

Rule Pumps 12 Volt DC Automatic Bilge Pumps 500 GPH - 2000 GPH feature computerized operation on the principle of impeller resistance. Float switches are not required. The pump will turn on every 2-1/2 minutes to sense for water. If water is present, the pump will sense resistance
and continue to run until all the water is removed. Thereafter, it will check for water every 2-1/2 minutes.Power use in the checking mode is minimal.

I am plugged in to shore power but do not want the pump to wear out checking for water. Guess I need to investigate further. Sure glad this WEB site is here for information.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 05:16:41

Yepper.. I've used that pump ( using the computer sensing method )in the font for years. They had just come out with that system and we were wary of it. It worked fine, and still works. I thought it would cause the pump to come on every 2.5 min but I never heard it "bump".

It was just below where we slept.

I really did not like the idea, but now I'm OK with the design as I've never messed with the pump, and it keeps working.

It is disconnected now as the boat is on a trailer, but when it was at the dock for a few years the pump kept the rainwater out.

Again, batteries on a solar panel.

Edited by - on

Drjohn71a
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 06:14:20

The previous owner let the bilge pump wiring lay in the bottom of the bilge after having coated the connectins with sealer. I drilled small holes in the Starboard edge of the cover flange to allow small zip ties to secure the wires up at the floor level in addition to waterproofing the connections.

Also, the reason for four bilge pumps on my last boat was that it was a power catamaran with some segmented hull compartments and even a 5th for the shower sump.

John

Edited by - Drjohn71a on 04/13/2012 06:17:50

pastmember
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Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 06:30:05

Some of you know I no longer own a Catalina 25, I have a Starwind 223. The bildge fills when we have big rains so I need a pump. I intend to add a Y at my sink drain for the discharge. This pump looks like a good physical fit for my boat and uses a different "sensor" than the Rule. ... from the Defender website.

SuperSub Smart650 Bilge Pump

The unique design, high flow rate, and innovative technology place this pump in a class of it's own. The Whale SuperSub Smar650 measures 2 1/8" high by 2 15/16" wide, produces a flow rate of 650 gallons per hour, and utilizes Whale's Patented Electric Field Sensor Technology. Whale's Electric Field Sensor Technology senses the water level and automatically controls the pump, making it fully automatic. The unique dimensions make SuperSub Smart 650 the lowest profile automatic bilge pump on the market and the high 650 GPH flow rate on such a compact pump is almost unheard of. This pump is able to go where others cannot ensuring that the pump can access water deep down in the bilge of the boat or difficult to reach areas under engines or in personal watercraft.

Features:

Low profile automatic bilge pump
Fully automatic bilge water removal
High flow rate
Unaffected by wave motion
Integrated Bleed Ball prevents airlocking
Quick and easy installation
Includes manual override facility
Solid state switching no moving parts
Electric Field Sensor Technology - senses water level and automatically controls the pump
Environmentally friendly mercury free
Easy Clean Strainer
Conforms to ISO8849 and ISO 15083
Ignition protected (ABYC and USCG standards)
CE Certified Directive 89/336/EEC EMC compliant
Rotatable 3/4" outlet port for an easy installation
Optional In-Line Non-Return Valve available - Part number LV1219
What is Electric Field Sensor Technology?

The circuit within the Supersub Smart 650 creates an electric field which passes through one side of the rear housing of the pump. The field exists above the rougher textured pad allowing the user to identify where to put their thumb to test if the pump has been correctly installed. If a dielectric material, such as a human thumb or water within the bilge of a boat covers the area denoted by the rough texture, the circuitry registers the disturbance in the electric field and if covered for 2 seconds or more activates the pump's motor.

When the bilge water (dielectric material) has been removed or gone below the level of the textured pad, the electric field is no longer experiencing a disturbance. A timer allows the pump to run for a further 15 seconds in order to remove water below the sensor and water currently in the pipe-work, before turning off.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 06:36:11

One of our friends had a 30 ft WorldCat with twin 140s and the bilges were not easy to get to, and the through hull was low and could not be seen in rough weather..

We were out in a storm and I could not tell for sure if the bilge pumps were working. I was not happy. You could see the water we were takin on go into the drain, but you could not tell if it was coming out..

Now I Always want a bilge through hull high enough to easily be seen to know if it is working properly.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 06:49:54

That SuperSub looks like the cats meow..

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hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2012 : 05:14:47

I like the Whale SuperSub 650 and will order it. I am leaning toward the discharge placement in the cockpit rather than drilling another hole in the transom. I like the idea of knowing if it comes on while we are out. Not sure where to place it so we do not get soaked feet if it does.

Edited by - on

Drjohn71a
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2012 : 07:15:30

While I understand your wanting to avoid more thru hull fittings via doubling up on exit tubes and fitting "y" and "T"s I do believe there is a significant risk in these installations. For one, the sink drain tie in assumes the boat will be level when the flood comes aboard. In my experience, getting pooped or swamped has always resulted in an off balance hull position to the dangerous waters. Also, when one's survival is limited by the already small diameter of the aft cockpit drains to rapidly dump water, it seems counterintuitive to be pumping what water got below into that limited system. If anytthing, more cockpit drains or much larger ones are needed to rapidly dump a wave intrusion. I'd be thinking of installing a wide slot completely across that aft cockpit area..

Also, it would not take much tipping for a Y fitting into a sink drain to allow the bilge pump to be dumping water back onboard by backing up the sink drain and it would not take much of an emergency to get some siphon action going. I know most inland lake boaters would rarely encounter such things, but I have seen 40 mph winds whip up some killer seas even in our little Kansas lakes. I have seen waves that tried to sink a pontoon boat due to the limiited draining from the tight fitting coamings.

For me, I do not want even one drop of unwanted water pumped back into the boat to rely on gravity to get it out. Also, you know those cockpit speaker installations will let a swamped wave situation pour directly into the hull.

John

Edited by - on

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2012 : 04:11:39

I ordered the pump and have decided to run it out the transom. So far I have not been able to find a thru transom fitting long enough to get through the 3" transom and attach to the 3/4" hose. I have sent an e-mail to Catalina Direct to see if they have something. I plan to put it near the outlet for the manual whale pump.

Edited by - on

CarbonSink62
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USA
208 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2012 : 06:41:30

My 1982 has a barbed through hull high on the port side of the transom. Isn't that for a second bilge pump? It seems like it might be a little too small in diameter. I saw someone use it to run the cable from an AM/FM antenna on the stern rail.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2012 : 09:01:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hewebb
 ...I have not been able to find a thru transom fitting long enough to get through the 3" transom...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">3" thick? Only if you're going through the liner in the starboard side. (...or have a power boat.) Inside the dumpster, there's no liner.

Frank: I take it your sink through-hull is above the waterline...

I've read various admonitions against check valves on bilge pump lines. They're said to reduce the effective rate of the pump by as much as half. Somebody here contemplated putting the electric pump on the intake to the manual pump, so either the manual pump would pull water through the electric, or the electric would push it through the manual (which works with two "flapper" check valves). IMHO, that would probably reduce the effectiveness of each by a large amount, and would eliminate the option of operating two pumps when you really need them. One more little Marelon mushroom on the transom is not going to hurt the appearance of a boat that already has an outboard on a bracket back there.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/18/2012 09:04:53

redeye
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Response Posted - 04/18/2012 : 10:09:57

<< One more little Marelon mushroom, is not gonna hurt >>

Ditto..

You want working redundant systems, not one system that has a greater chance of failing.

It is on my to do list.. 1100 in the bilge, wired from a blue sea DC subpanel, with hose running in the dumpster along the wall right next to the manual pump hose to a through hull high aft.

Edited by - redeye on 04/18/2012 10:51:08

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Response Posted - 04/18/2012 : 10:33:59

Yes, my sink drains out a through hull above the waterline. My only intention for a pump is for unattended events in my slip which is why I will probably use a splitter. If my boat starts to sink in Lake Cheney the last thing I am going to worry about is the boat. I am grabbing the Bourbon and wading ashore.

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Drjohn71a
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Response Posted - 04/18/2012 : 11:15:13

FRANK,

I think you're just saying that (grabbing the boubon) just to get one of us passersby to take you aboard!

John

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Drjohn71a
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Response Posted - 04/18/2012 : 11:16:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Drjohn71a
 FRANK,

I think you're just saying that (grabbing the boubon) just to get one of us passersby to take you aboard!

ps I hope the others on site noted your term, "wading ashore" which has been the most appropriate lately for our Kansas lakes...

John
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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