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Wing and wing ...

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5937 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2003 : 13:42:35

Gary, if your boom is restrained by a preventer in strong winds, and if the mainsail is backwinded, the sudden force on the opposite side of the mainsail is so strong that it overwhelms the rudder. The boat becomes uncontrollable and can broach. A sudden broach in strong winds and big waves is dangerous, because, if the boat broaches, and if the next wave hits the boat just right, it can roll the boat over.

I agree with you that if you are not using a preventer, and the wind backwinds your main under the same conditions, you would suffer a violent gybe, and probably break some hardware and/or blow out your mainsail, but the risk of broaching and of rolling over would be less. Either result would be bad, though.

Jellyfish, I agree that 25 kts. is a lot of wind to be running wing and wing with full working sails, but Gary didn't say whether or not he had already rolled up some of his jib and tucked a reef in his mainsail. He might have. In our boats, however, I agree with you that sailing wing and wing in winds over about 25 kts. is pushing your luck, even with heavily reefed sails. Some racers will do it, thinking that more sail area means more speed, but, in my opinion, an overpowered boat is a slow boat, whether you are overpowered going to windward, or running downwind. You can't control a boat that is overpowered running downwind. The rudder doesn't have enough power to hold her on course.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

jellyfish
Navigator

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USA
171 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2003 : 14:32:19

thanks Steve, that is exactly what I thought. To me sailing wing n wing is something you do when you want to go dead down wind on a calm day. any breeze over 15kts is a broad reach jibing down wind to your mark. IMHO

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2003 : 15:12:26

I agree that sailing "wing and wing" should be done in lighter winds and smaller seas for both safety and tactical reasons. One thing to keep in mind when running is that the apparent wind is going to be considerably less than the true wind and that the wind can build without the crew realizing it.

Say you're running in 12kts of true wind, with the apparent wind at 6kts. It doesn't feel like much, so you keep your full sails up and enjoy the ride. Anyway, you're running for awhile and the apparent wind gradually builds to say between 12 and 15 kts which gets you really moving. Now, it's time to head off on a beam reach. You make your turn, and suddenly the wind, which didn't feel like much a couple of seconds ago, is now 18 to 21 true with the apparent wind from the beam reach going even higher. Additionally, the nice following seas that you enjoyed moments ago, are no longer following you, but instead are now having a completely different effect on your boat. Now you are caught with to much sail up for the wind and water conditons.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5937 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2003 : 19:20:53

Gary,

I just want to clarify that I only have a problem with using a preventer in strong wind. In moderate wind, where the windstrength is such that the boat will not broach if the mainsail is backwinded, and where the waves are probably not big enough to roll the boat over, a preventer can be used safely.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2003 : 00:51:27

Steve: Gotcha.....Now, for the other guys questioning my judgement on the Tartan. That boat has a 4000 # lead fin keel with skeg hung rudder that usually tracks like a dream. You may not believe this, but I have broad reached for hours with a 130 jenny, full main, the boat surfing at 10+ knots, pulling a Nouveraia inflatable, and the windspeed over the quarter was touching 30 knots at times as I was surfing at 10. You do the math. The issue is, this was in the Strait of Juan de Fuca, heading for Victoria. Other ocean races I won on that boat, not because I am a great sailor, but the boat could carry full sails when others reefed or took down chutes at nightfall.

I honestly cannot remember if i was running or reaching when I had the nasty jibe, but I suspect I may have been wing and wing. I DO reef when the boat starts to feel overpowered, but this one did not in 25 knots of breeze. We were probably doing 8+, so the apparent wind was only about 15 or so... What I do know was that it was nearly dark and I was having trouble seeing the vane. I rolled off a big wave and the main was backwinded; hence the jibe. But, hey, it might have been poor helmsmanship out there, but this particular boat did not need a reef very often. Sparkman and Stephens really designed a "sailboat" when they made this one......I am a relatively cautious sailor, whether you believe it or not. I don't swim well at all, and I don't have much budget for repairs!

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR

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jellyfish
Navigator

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USA
171 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2003 : 10:06:27

no offense meant Gary, I must admit I dont race and I dont know anything about sailing a Tartan. One thing I do know is there is a hell alot of difference between running wing n wing and a broad reach. I have always found and heard to be true that a broad reach is the easist point of sail and usually the fastest.

http://web.singnet.com.sg/-dgswee/appwind/broadrch.htm

Edited by - jellyfish on 01/14/2003 11:13:22

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aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2003 : 10:41:26

[/quote] "Al, sorry if I remain a little skeptical. you stated 12.5 kts for 3 1/2 hrs. must have been a hell of a wave you were surfing. I know you can exceed hull speed and I am no small lake sailor(unless you consider the Gulf of Mexico a small lake) I would also remain skeptical about "best sailing area in the country" even if we do have salt in our water".

[/quote]

Sorry you're are so skeptical. The "surfing" effect occurs on successive waves with a slight decrease in speed in the trough until the next wave catches up. Anyone else ever experience this aspect of down wind sailing?

Gulf of Mexico...........hmmmmm, it's 17 degrees and snowing heavily, as it has been for the last four days in the Keweenaw Peninsula of Upper Michigan. It would be nice to sail longer than 41/2 months per year but, I still prefer fresh to salt. Come up and try us out some summer. Be glad to host a visitor from the deep south.

AL
GALLIVANT #5801

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jellyfish
Navigator

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USA
171 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2003 : 11:02:06

Al, it isnt the "surfing effect" Im skeptical about, it is the 12.5 kts for 3.5 hrs LOL! Thanks for the invite, might have to take you up on it. you are welcome to come sail with us too!

"salt air it aint thin, it will stick right to your skin and make you feel fine, make you feel fine" Jimmy Buffett

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2003 : 12:08:39

Al - on Canyon Lake if the wind is from the N-W for a while and 15k+, it has a good 5 mile fetch and the waves will build to +/- 3'. I have had "This Side Up" surfing in this.
I think we may have some confusion about wing-and-wing. To me it means running without a whisker pole and keeping the jib full by moving the helm as necessary. It is indeed easiest done dead downwind (or very close to it). This is absolutely the slowest point of sail. With a pole up you NEVER want to sail dead downwind - halfway between dead downwind and a broad reach is optimum. This gives maximum speed and shortest distance to the mark. A broad reach is a LITTLE faster, but you sail a lot further.
The fastest point of sail is a beam reach - but we don't often have that capability on a downwind leg!
Derek

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jellyfish
Navigator

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USA
171 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2003 : 12:30:26

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> This gives maximum speed and shortest distance to the mark. A broad reach is a LITTLE faster, but you sail a lot further.
The fastest point of sail is a beam reach - but we don't often have that capability on a downwind leg!
Derek<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

and of course you are referred to racing a triangle. not sailing in general where the destination may well be on a broad reach.

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2984 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2003 : 13:40:20

With the discussion turning a bit to broad reaches, and the comment above that they are easy.... thats generally true, but a broad reach can become a real chore in a breeze on a body of water offering seas.

As the quartering sea approaches the stern, it impacts the rudder sideways and at the same time is enough aft to stall it. The combination tend to spin the boat towards a broach. To overcome, anticipatory helming is done which veins the rudder to the sea as it impacts. Then as the sea lifts the boat, rudder is returned to course as it regains lift as the boat sails down the sea.

This is a chore the auto pilot can't handle and because it demands both careful attention and physical exertion by the helmsman, its tiring. I had a 65 mile 12 hour stint of it this summer in 20-28 knot winds with 4-5 ft seas and without a break was worn to a frazzle.

It was run under varying headsail amounts and no main. At 28 knots, less than half of the 110%, at 20 knots full 110%. All the while keeping speed conservative at around 5.5 mph to avoid overstressing the forestay in part and to allow more forgivness time for helming errors.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 01/14/2003 18:09:07

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aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2003 : 17:13:22

[quote]
"Al, it isnt the "surfing effect" Im skeptical about, it is the 12.5 kts for 3.5 hrs LOL! Thanks for the invite, might have to take you up on it. you are welcome to come sail with us too!"

Jellyfish,

I see why you're incredulous. It's cold up here and I sometimes have trouble expressing my thoughts when it's cold. The temp has dropped four degrees since this morning. It's now 13. The 12 1/2 was achieved while serfing. It was not a sustained speed. The trip we were on normally takes about a 6 to 7 hours. We did it in 3 1/2.

My email address is aeckhart@chartermi.net. Who knows, a cruise exchange could happen.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - aeckhart on 01/14/2003 17:15:56

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aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2003 : 17:26:30

I think this subject has been pretty well hashed over. The essential question was what's the easiest way to wing-on-wing. For me when you sail dead down wind the main will always blanket the jib and it will stall. By easing the main sheet and hauling the windward jib sheet the main will funnel air into the now exposed jib. Wala! Wing on wing. Slow and hard to maintain, dangerous because of the possiblity of accidental jibes. Still, if you want to get there in a straight line, it's a means of doing it. I personnaly like my cruising spinnaker on a broad reach.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5937 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2003 : 10:30:10

There’s something else worth mentioning on this subject. Gary told about a time when his mainsail gybed and he was knocked down and injured by the mainsheet. When you’re running wing and wing, never let the mainsheet get behind your back. If you sit as far aft in the cockpit as possible, on the same side as the boom, and lay the mainsheet across your stomach, and keep your arms under the mainsheet, then if there is an accidental gybe, the mainsheet won’t snag on any part of your body as it whips over to the opposite side of the boat.

If your crew is stationed in the cockpit, s(he) should sit up close to the cabin, and keep his/her head lower than the lifelines, to keep out of the way of the mainsheet.

If you are a racer, your crew will probably be stationed just forward of the mast, to distribute their weight properly. In that case, the skipper can use a tiller extension, and sit up close to the cabin to steer the boat.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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