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Spin Pole & gear

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/25/2012 : 07:57:07

I have been sailing in teh spin fleet the last couple weeks, and it got me thinking about upgrading our gear to spin gear from our current JaM setup.

I already have a halyard rigged, but I would need to add a topping lift and downhaul.

Also would need 2 additional sheetleads and turning blocks.

Could the existing whisker pole ends be put on a solid pole and become a spin pole?

Not sure what else I would need. Can anyone chime in with what is working for them as a spin setup? Trying to wrap my head around costs before I dive in too deep.

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

Take a minute to register your boat with the association!!
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/owner_questionnaire.htm

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2012 : 08:51:31

I think this is related to your question. Could anyone explain the difference of a whisker pole and spin pole?

I have a ton of stainless tubing and was thinking of making one. Might be a little heavy though.

Edited by - NautiC25 on 05/25/2012 08:51:46

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2012 : 09:00:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NautiC25
 I think this is related to your question. Could anyone explain the difference of a whisker pole and spin pole?

I have a ton of stainless tubing and was thinking of making one. Might be a little heavy though.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

From what I read on the CD website, the difference is that one is a fixed pole and the other is an extending pole.

My guess is that since a spinnaker takes heavier loads, you need the fixed pole. Also the max length of a spin pole is shorter than the max length of a whisker pole.

Forespar has a pretty decent graphic of the setup for a spin boat. I think its close to what I need to do...

http://www.forespar.com/products/aluminum-spinnaker-poles.shtml

Edited by - Prospector on 05/25/2012 09:03:01

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2012 : 10:25:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 I have been sailing in teh spin fleet the last couple weeks, and it got me thinking about upgrading our gear to spin gear from our current JaM setup.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Good for you! I really regret not having learned how to rig and fly a spinnaker 30 years ago. You'll be glad you did.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Could the existing whisker pole ends be put on a solid pole and become a spin pole?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Not sure, but I have doubts. The whisker pole consists of two tubes, one of which is a smaller dimension from the other, so it can slide inside it. They won't both fit perfectly on the same size pole. You might be able to jury rig them in a way that won't compromise their strength. Don't know.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2012 : 12:06:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 I have been sailing in teh spin fleet the last couple weeks, and it got me thinking about upgrading our gear to spin gear from our current JaM setup.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Good for you! I really regret not having learned how to rig and fly a spinnaker 30 years ago. You'll be glad you did.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Forgot to say - I've been on someone else's boat so i am eyeballing Iris to see what it would take to equip her.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2012 : 13:55:35

The primary difference between a whisker pole and a spinnaker pole is that the former is used with jibs and genoas and the latter is used with a spinnaker. A whisker pole is not always a telescoping pole. It depends on how you make it. A spinnaker pole has a set length, usually the boat's J dimension, and it frequently has a slightly larger diameter than a whisker pole for the same boat. A whisker pole can have a variable length, as most of the whisker poles used on C-25's do, the maximum of which is generally longer than a spinnaker pole so it can be used effectively with a genoa. For example, the C22 has a J of 8', and that is the maximum length of the spinnaker pole for that boat, but the whisker pole can be up to 12' long tip to tip.
You can use spinnaker pole end fittings to make a whisker pole. Several of us who race our C22's have done that. I found some on sale at Defender a few years ago.
Buy the fittings first because that will determine the pole inside diameter wou will need.

Edited by - dmpilc on 05/25/2012 13:58:56

NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2012 : 15:40:53

I just talked to my brother, who makes parts for an aircraft company. He hand lays carbon fiber. Hmmmmm, need to go find exact specs. :)

From what I read, spin poles are fixed to handle added loads. A whisker pole may compress or bend under the load.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2012 : 16:08:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NautiC25
 I just talked to my brother, who makes parts for an aircraft company. He hand lays carbon fiber. Hmmmmm, need to go find exact specs. :)

From what I read, spin poles are fixed to handle added loads. A whisker pole may compress or bend under the load.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When you consider the fact that a whisker pole, when fully collapsed (as it would be if used with a spinnaker), consists of two tubes (one inside the other), and a spin pole only consists of one, it's hard to imagine that a spin pole would be stronger.

Experienced spinnaker racers have told me you shouldn't use a whisker pole for a spinnaker, but they never said why, and I never asked. I guess I should have.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2012 : 16:24:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 A whisker pole is not always a telescoping pole. It depends on how you make it. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Under Chesapeake Bay PHRF, the racing rules limited the length of both a whisker pole and a spinnaker pole, for racing, to the length of the J. Thus, a single, non-telescoping pole could be used for both purposes. But, cruisers can use a whisker pole of any length. For a C25, a telescoping 7-17' pole is the right length.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2012 : 17:23:19

phrf-lo has thrown out the limitation on pole length for a whisker pole, but maintained it for a spin pole.

The thinking being that with a longer pole, you are flattening the sail and killing your performance anyways, so why penalize?

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2012 : 19:43:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 ...The thinking being that with a longer pole, you are flattening the sail and killing your performance anyways, so why penalize?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
OK, naive question here. I thought that whisker poles are for dead downwind, where it's all about maximum sail drag. In other words, forget about sail shapes and foils, and just maximize the sail's profile to the wind. So longer pole is virtually always better. Correct or not?

I know nothing about spins, so not sure if that would apply.

Sorry to sound dumb, but this topic seemed like an opportunity to learn.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2012 : 20:49:56

You don't want a foil downwind, but you do want some "bag" in the sail. I don't know how to describe it, but you want a little curve in teh sail. The flatter it is the less wind its holding. In lighter air you want it baggier, but in heavier air you want it a little flatter but not dead flat. Never stretched.

This is just going off what feels right though - no science behind it here.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2012 : 20:58:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 You don't want a foil downwind, but you do want some "bag" in the sail. I don't know how to describe it, but you want a little curve in teh sail. The flatter it is the less wind its holding. In lighter air you want it baggier, but in heavier air you want it a little flatter but not dead flat. Never stretched.

This is just going off what feels right though - no science behind it here.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thanks for the suggestion. I'm still just learning about how to use my whisker pole. So far I'd just say that it's much better than not having a whisker pole, no matter how well (or poorly) you fine-tune it.

One trick my friend showed me is to leave it short enough to clear the forestay in a jibe. This probably leaves a little more bag than you describe, but more importantly gives significant flexibility when frequently jibing down a narrow river. If I have very steady wind direction and a long fetch to run, I'll go forward and lengthen the pole longer than this, but in most cases I leave it short enough to just clear the forestay so I don't have to keep going forward. I added a small loop of line to connect to when doing this, since latching onto the leeward sheet requires resetting the pole every time you jibe.

The Forespar video that I saw suggested adjusting it long enough to make it a straight-line extension of the boom. Not sure how the physics works with that either, but it seems that setting it like that allows for a little shape on the foresail.

Oops, sorry for the hijack.

Edited by - TakeFive on 05/25/2012 20:59:32

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2012 : 03:59:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 phrf-lo has thrown out the limitation on pole length for a whisker pole, but maintained it for a spin pole. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I heard about that change, but couldn't find it in the Phrf rules, to confirm it.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The thinking being that with a longer pole, you are flattening the sail and killing your performance anyways, so why penalize?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I won both of my national regattas racing non-spin, scratch, against spinnaker boats. In my first national regatta, my boat overtook and passed spinnaker boats on the downwind leg. In time, I think the rules makers are going to see non-spin boats occasionally passing spin boats downwind, and when they do, they will change the whisker pole rule back, and limit it's length. IMO, spinnakers are generally faster than non-spin with a long whisker pole, but not if you sail the spin boat deep downwind. Spin boats gain a lot of speed by reaching downwind, and non-spin boats don't gain nearly as much by reaching downwind. More importantly, in winds over about 12 kts, a boat sailing deep downwind wing-and-wing is competitive with a spinnaker boat. Another equalizing factor is that it's very quick and easy to set and take down a whisker pole, but it's very complicated to set and take down a spinnaker, and, if the spin crew makes a mistake, they often take 100-200 yards to correct it and get the spinnaker flying. Thus, unless the spin crew can make perfect hoists, the non-spin boat can be competitive.

My theory is that it has been so long since current rulemakers have actually seen non-spin boats with long poles race against spin boats that they have forgotten how much faster a long whisker pole can make a boat.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 05/26/2012 05:37:19

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