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Sailing w/Headsail only problem

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waterbaby
Navigator

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USA
168 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/29/2012 : 09:55:37

Hi Everyone,
We had a problem sailing with our headsail this weekend and I'm not sure what we did wrong so hopefully you can enlighten me.

We went out intending only to motor because there'd been showers off and on all day and we didn't want to get our sails wet. (We had another commitment and no time to get them dried out) As our luck would have it the engine conked out on us just as we made it to the main part of the river. So since the wind was kicked up and we still were mindful of a possible shower we decided to try sailing back to the marina with only our headsail. So here's the problem I had.

Using a clock for reference points, lets say the entrance to the creek where we dock is at noon. The wind was coming at us from 1 at somewhere between 15-18k. We could sail easily from 4 to 8, to sail at 3 or 9 meant I had to keep the rudder pinched as far over as it would go and there was no way I could get the boat to tack across the wind try as I might. Why couldn't I get to 10 and 11? Why couldn't I tack across the wind? I've never sailed with just the headsail alone so I'm sure I was doing something pretty wrong. Every attempt just blew me back no matter how much speed I built up before turning. Please enlighten me. :)

Eventually the engine decided to work again - otherwise I think we'd have had to ask for a tow.

Thanks in advance for your help/explaination.

1986 TR/SK #5250 Sunshine

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2012 : 10:05:11

Once the wind gets up you are getting a lot of pressure on the front of the boat with the jib only. Using the main balances you out a lot and gives you more forward motion. Jib only has a tendency to hold you downwind.

Next time raise the main with a reef in it.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2012 : 10:09:57

http://www.myrc.org/Library/centeref.htm

With the jib only up you ended up with a lee helm..

hard to turn into the wind, even when you let go of the sheets.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2012 : 10:36:50

Ray's pretty much got it pegged. I think of it as the boat being a weathervane. You only had the front half of the arrow on your weathervane. No way it could point forward. You got up beyond pointing straight downwind because the lift of the sail, the rudder, and the keel were helping you, but you couldn't point to windward because you needed the back half of that weathervane to give you the rest of the lift you needed to point to where the wind was coming from (like a weathervane does).

The boats do sail really well on headsail alone, but you should expect to lose a lot of windward performance.

Edited by - on

smshield28
Deckhand

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USA
15 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2012 : 13:22:49

The secret here is to get up some speed going downwind, then simultaneously ease the jib completely while putting the tiller hard over.

The momentum of the boat will turn the boat around into the wind, where you can then tighten the sail again to get moving forward.

The same thing works when just sailing with a reefed main and no jib. I was out in high wind (20+mph) this weekend with one reef in and no jib. I couldn't tack completely unless I fell off and got some hull speed up to carry me through the tack.

Good luck!

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pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2012 : 13:38:54

I find that in good wind on headsail alone I need to tack over with sheets released until I am across and down to a beam reach, then trim in the headsail and head up as speed increases, trimming in all the way back up to close hauled. I think most people haul the headsail in way too soon and their bow blows on down.

Edited by - on

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2012 : 13:52:13

tune the rig as well? This w/e we sailed with the 150 only. I tuned the mast by "feel" this year and ended up with a self-sailing boat beating upwind. I thought I secured a rope on the tiller to reduce motion, then went about the boat checking the heading occasionally. When I came back to my surprise it wasn't fully secured, but hadn't touched the tiller for 15min.

I still have more to learn on tuning, but htis state of "un-tune" seems to work well. The mast is in column, and the leeward shrouds slacken.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2012 : 14:04:42

You didn't say what size sail you were flying. If you are using only a jib, you need an overlapping jib to be able to tack easily, and generally, the bigger the jib, the better it works.

As others explained, if all or most of the force on the sail is exerted forward of the Center of Lateral Resistance (the keel), then that force will pull the bow downwind. If some of the force, such as from the mainsail or from an overlapping jib, exerts some force aft of the CLR, then that force will tend to push the stern to leeward, and the bow to windward. The key to sailing on jib alone is to be able to balance the forces ahead of and aft of the CLR. A jib of about 130% or larger will usually work reasonably well. Smaller than that will usually be a struggle.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2012 : 18:38:44

IOW.....it don't point real good without the main.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2012 : 14:14:37

I agree with Frank, With the headsail alone the boat will over tack and end up on a beam reach, If you are pulling the sheet in tight and locking it off then your not going to go anywhere. Leave the sail out some and as you start to gain speed back you will then be able to turn more towards the wind and at the same time start pulling the sheet in.

Edited by - islander on 05/30/2012 14:16:25

waterbaby
Navigator

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USA
168 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2012 : 17:22:03

Thanks everyone. I have a 110 so I guess based on what you all are saying things behaved as would be expected. I tried shortening the headsail to see if that would help and it just made it worse, so your explainations really make sense.

I was tying the reef in the main in prep to raise it when hubby finally got the motor running. I've never tried the headsail by itself but have used the main alone several times and never had this problem.

Now with all this new knowledge I'm itching to go out and try it again. It never occurred to me to loosen up on the headsail while making the turn and I wonder if that would have worked. Seems like it might have.

I do need to spend some time tuning the rig though. The weather helm was terrible. I don't have a balance rudder though so I don't know how much of a difference that will make. Still I'm going to study that link you sent Ray so hopefully I can improve things.

But Hey, I was sailing last weekend - it's all good.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2012 : 12:41:59

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">But Hey, I was sailing last weekend - it's all good.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
And with those freshly washed sparkling white sails

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2012 : 19:15:01

I sailed headsail alone with a 130 and was able to make good upwind progress and tack effectively. For the reasons Steve describes, the 110 might not be quite as effective, since the center of effort is a little further forward...

However, I believe you should still be able to do much better than you described, by falling off to a beam reach, gaining speed, and then heading up. Any time you push the rudder as far over as it will go, it is acting like a brake--not a rudder. Keep your tacking turns to 45 degrees of rudder or less, for better turning and to maintain more momentum. Then sheet in for a beam reach on the new tack, get your speed up, and then gradually trim and point up. Don't make the jib board-tight, and don't try to point as high as you can with your main up. I think with a little experimenting, you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/31/2012 19:16:05

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2012 : 19:38:37

Another thing... about weather helm (with both sails): That can be a result of trimming your main too tightly, or having the mast tipped aft too far. If you unfasten your main halyard from the sail and let it hang by the boom, how far aft of the mast is the shackle? On my standard rig, 5-6" was about right for a light weather helm. (You want some.) But that a SR with a 130.

Another thing you can do with a swing keel, especially as a temporary fix, is to crank it up just a little to move the center of lateral resistance (CLR) aft, so the center of effort of the rig (CE) is not so far aft of the CLR. You won't be measurably reducing the lever-arm of the keel, but you should notice the reduction of force on the helm.

A balanced rudder doesn't reduce weather helm--it just reduces the force of it against your arm. The angle of the rudder to offset the weather helm, and therefore the drag the rudder creates, is the same. Part of that drag is offsetting the force on the tiller.

Edited by - on

waterbaby
Navigator

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USA
168 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2012 : 10:05:17

Aw Islander, you remembered my sail washing trials...

We went out last weekend and had a great, GREAT time. The weather was beautiful, the boat handled pretty well even with a sparkling white but baggy mainsail... That's another story... The engine actually worked like a champ, but that's also a whole different story.

I didn't try the headsail alone because we were just having too good of a time for me to want to spoil it with experiementing. Hubby finally seems to be getting into it! And since I know he's not to fond of drills, I didn't want to push my luck.

Maybe next time... I still want to try this again. I'm pretty sure I tried everything except loosening the sheets early in the turn. I do need to do some rig tuning though, things are a little loose on the starboard side and come to think of it that may have been part of the problem also. I was trying to turn to starboard.... Hmmm......

I've been meaning to try the tips on tuning the rig anyway. I get near the boat on a pretty day though and all I can think of is - go sailing.

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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2012 : 15:29:49

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I get near the boat on a pretty day though and all I can think of is - go sailing.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I think it happens to all of us. I always have some things to do to the boat after its launched in the spring but after a while those things get put into the " It will wait till fall" then when fall arrives those things get put into "after I haul the boat for the winter" Then of course its back to spring again. A real vicious cycle.

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