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2003 C250

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Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/11/2003 : 12:01:27

Went to the Denver boat show yesterday. They have made a few changes to the C250. IMHO some good and some bad.

According to the dealer the deck molds for the Wk & Wb are now made from the same mold. They only had the Wk on display so I could not compare one to the other.

The good:

The fuel locker had some changes. The lid used to be made out of starboard material with a bunge and some wood blocks inside to keep it in place. Now it is fiberglass with hinges and it opens toward the cockpit. They also moved the vent to the other side of the rudder. This was done to help ease the pain of putting on the 3rd gen rudder.

The cockpit lockers now have 3 hinges instead of 2.

The galley now has teak around the stove, sink and work area instead of the plastic. The cup holder & plate holder areas still had the plastic.

The Bad:

The companion way slide hatch in now fiberglass with a 1'x1' plexiglas square in the middle of it. (Looks like a new leak area to me)The dealer said the good thing is now you can stand on the closed hatch except on the 1'x1' square of plexiglas. I like the whole slide hatch being plexiglas.

This is the worst change

The one line jiffy reefing system is NO LONGER RUN TO THE COCKPIT it has a horn cleat on the mast. (what are they thinking). This makes no since, this now makes reefing a two person operation because the main halyard in still run back to the cockpit. On my boat I can be reefed within a minute after I deside to reef. ( The dealer thought it would be change back to the old way soon.)

The only other thing I noticed was the halyard cluches were a different brand than on my 2000. I did not catch the brand name, but they looked to be of cheaper quality.

The most interesting boat show in years here on the Colorado Front Range.

Bryan Beamer
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2003 : 16:09:20

Bryan, thanks for the report.

The dynamics of changes are, to make a better product, to save production cost, to avoid past warranty or liability issues with likely the latter as the stronger driving force.

I have just added a lanyard to my boat mods list this year for the fuel locker lid. As it is, if the bungee fails, the lid is gone.

I wonder if the deck mold was changed back when they announced that the shrouds on the water ballast would now be inboard as those on the wing. I've been an advocate of not running the shrouds the necessary tightness to apply mast prebend because there are no interior bulkheads to hold the hull. The scheme used on the wing is evidently better... though having the chainplate anchors above the settees isn't great.

The wing deck also provides more verticle in the aft berth I think but at the cost of a little more freeboard.

The reefing change is likely a response to damaged sails from the line led aft. One thing Catalina does not do is come clean about things like this, setting themselves up for a general recall. They do respond on an individual basis however.

IMHO, I have always been skeptical of the single line reefing led to the cockpit. Very aware of the effort it takes to get the single line to make all of the routing and the coaxing I have to do when on the coach roof to get a clean reef, I suspect that some may be using the winch to haul the reef and have torn their clew or tack out in the process. What Catalina is really saying here is.... we are not going to continue to repair/replace mains that are damaged by using a winch to haul the reef line. As it is, an owner with a single line reef led thru a clutch by the factory or dealer, assumes that its intended to be winched. I doubt your dealers comment... Catalina will likely not retrench this decision.

btw, while using a winch has always been popular to haul halyards, its a great cause of slug failures.

I noted Bill Bosworths comments a couple of weeks ago about doing sail management from on the coachroof and think its time that those of us that don't run lines aft, speak our reasons for not. I don't think lines led aft are a panacea. The example of Catalina's discontinuence of the jiffy reef line led aft is an illustration point.

Other reasons are that as helpful as it seems to be to have controls in the safety of the cockpit, a big part of that is having them all at the same location (which is your point). This is easy to do on the coachroof as it places one in the position of the halyard, reef line, vang sheet, topping lift, gaskets and sail ties. And, as coach roof familiarity and skill is needed to handle the drifter, cruising chute, whisker pole etc., why go to the hassle of running lines aft (and I've been on the coach roof in some bad stuff with my butt glued to the roof and one leg around the vang hanging on to a wildly pitching boat (wearing harness btw)).

In the past, many have done this with the thought that it allows sail management while single handed, as they can remain close to the tiller and there is good argument for that. And the argument is not a bad one to do it to save leaving the cockpit for safety reasons... but IMHO an auto pilot is a greater asset than lines led aft.

For the boat with lines aft, I think a double line reef is an option. Use the clutch for the tack and a horn aft on the boom for the clew. The remaining choice is using some block scheme to elimnate the drag associated with a single line reef feeding thru clew and tack grommets. I agree with Catalina here.... winching a single line reef is problematic (edited to mean as applies to the routing of the reef line on the C250). I also agree with you, having the lines at differing locations is problematic. And, Catalina knows that. What I hear them saying is, they are not going to be responsible in the future if one runs the line back himself and throws it on a winch.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 01/13/2003 08:25:35

Edited by - on

kirkh
Deckhand

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USA
17 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2003 : 16:59:21

I was at the Atlanta Boat show today and I saw something on a 470 that I thought could possibly be used on a 250. They had the stereo speakers mounted under the stern rail seats. That would place them more at the ear level than other locations. Has anyone ever tried that location or can think of any drawbacks?

Kirk
250WK #490

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2003 : 14:19:18

Arlyn

Thanks for the comments. This is the first boat I've had that has a 1 line reef system led to the cockpit. All the others where done as you stated, on the coach roof. But even then 1 person could do the reef. I personally feel Catalina should put them both on the mast or both to the cockpit.

I too see how using the winch on the main halyard and 1 line reefing system could do damage to the clew & tack & the sail slugs. That is why I take extreme care when raising the sail & reefing.

IMHO I think it will be more necessary to need a winch for the 1 line reef at the mast. I don't think you can get enough leverage pulling down from the boom to the deck while sitting on your butt. reefing from the coach roof would be much better with a 2 line system.

Bryan Beamer
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2003 : 16:14:59

When its time to set a 1st reef, the boat is not pitching that much. Doing so from the cabin top is not a problem and your right, the one line system manually is a struggle. I haul the clew tight by standing ahead of the mast facing aft and pulling up from the mast sheave on the port side. Then, clamping the lines with right hand at the sheave, pulling the tack line to the left of boom until the slack is out and then working my way around the mast to haul the tack down and cleat.

The 2nd reef is two lines with a horn cleat starboard forward on the boom for the clew. Even setting the 2nd reef, the boat is usually not pitching too wildly. When the main is overpowered with a double reef is when the boat is usually pitching bad.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2003 : 18:19:14

Arlyn - I'm sorry but I don't understand why you have a problem with the single-line reefing - is the set-up on a C250 that much different from the C25? My single-reefing line is led back to the cockpit and the crew can reef it so quickly it is (almost) unbelievable (their record is 21 seconds...) My reef line is 3/16" diam which runs easily and normally we don't even need to use a winch. I respect your knowlege of the C250 - but I'll always believe that the safest place to adjust sails (including reefing) is from the cockpit.
Derek

Edited by - on

jkountz
1st Mate

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USA
48 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2003 : 20:21:10

This weekend I completed the mod to run the single line reefing to the cockpit. The main reason was safety.

No doubt the auto pilot is great for holding the helm.

Safety is not an either/or tradeoff. Trusting your life to a piece of electronics that will eventually fail seems unwise.

Redundancy is important; running all lines to the cockpit is just plain smart. Anytime you pull away from the dock, even with a full crew it's smart to be prepared for single handing so you can survive to talk about it.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2003 : 01:04:19

Derek, one of the differences between our two boats is that the power sail is reversed, the headsail for the c25 and the main for the c250. The main also on the c250 has full battens which keep the main from luffing much. Added to that is the newness of the sails on the c250's.

The first reef is a fairly deep reef. The routing is different as the c250 routes the line from the clew internally thru the mast which requires more than a 45 degree back angle off the reef clew.

The big issue however is that where your line routes to a cheek block forward on the boom and turns up to the tack.... ours turns down from the exit sheave to a too small factory cheek block on the mast which forces a 360 degree turn up to the tack.

So, we are dealing with more and stiffer sail with less tendancy for the sail to luff and shake the slides thru the mast track as well as 1/4 line which has two 360 switchback sheaves (one of them very small), two 90 degree sheave turns and two 360 degree grommet turns. In all, considerably different than the C25.

Some have modified the too small switch back port cheek block on the mast to a block lower down and in some cases at the mast base and helped the problem.

The 2nd reef would be much simpler to single line as it would be set up just as the c25 with boom cheek blocks. I am not sure if Catalina now rigs this but for a long time they left this up to the owner to set the supplied single line to either the 1st or 2nd reef not having the other available.

I use both reefs and have added the appropriate rigging for the 2nd which is much easier to set than the first.

If I were to have a problem with Catalina, it would be why they don't simply add two cheek blocks to the boom which are all that are required for the 2nd reef and it likely wouldn't have much problem being handled without the use of a winch.

And, ... I'm not a believer that having lines led aft is a requirement for safe single handing for all. We all have different comfort levels and should rig our boats to suit and whats necessary for one may not be for another.

And,... regarding safety, how many have an extension teather installed on their harness? What I mean is a longer teather to cleat to the six footer if one should be over the side and hung and unable to get back over the rail. Which will run out and allow reaching the swim ladder. I don't think I'm cavalier about safety.

According to one report I heard, the majority of sailors overboard occur while doing it.... and we're not talking about sail handling.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 01/13/2003 08:16:41

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2003 : 11:27:58

Arlyn - thanks for the explanation. It sounds like a bit of a Rube Golberg system! Would it be possible to dismantle that reefing system and install a similar set-up to what we have on the C25? Just a thought...<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2003 : 19:07:35

I'm not sure how easy the first reef would be to change but the second would be a piece of cake requiring just two cheek blocks (one forward on the boom and one slightly aft of the reef clew) and of course the turning block at the mast base.

In fact, the 2nd reef should be set up that way as the end of the boom is too far aft to best set the clew position by the internal line.

The c250 does not have extra boom length like the C25 with its aft main sheet. To install the 1st reef on the side of the boom rather than internally, might present a problem with the aft cheek block. To place a cheek block aft far enough may require fastening in the zone of the aluminum tail casting and that may not be far enough back, I have not checked this.

Anyone wishing to install the 2nd reef, the setup is quite simple. First decide which side the line is wanted to the cockpit. The cheekblocks will go on the opposite side of the boom. Use those that have a slight radius. One installs forward on the boom (aft enough so rivets miss the goose neck casting) and the other about six inches aft of the 2nd reef clew. I suggest pop rivets but tapping for screws is fine also. Mount a turning block at mast base and run the line. The line begins at the becket of the aft cheek block, runs under the boom ant up thru the clew and thru the aft check block and foward along mast to fore cheek block and up thru tack and back down to base turning block. I also have an eye strap mid way on the boom to keep the loose line from sagging too far.

If, the 2nd reef is wanted but intentions are to hand it on the coach roof, then the blocks should go on the port side of the boom so that the line ends up on the starboard to cleat on one of the existing mast cleats.

One more if. If self storing sail ties are set up, they likely work better installed on the port side of boom so they can be drawed over to starboard side hammock hooks though it can be done either way with the difference that you will be pushing the ties over the sail rather than pulling them. If they are port, then the 2nd reef will have to be starboard and should be configured as a double line reef. Instead of the fore cheek block, make it a horn cleat. Doing so will allow the tack line to cleat starboard as it should.

Whew.... I'm confused. Last, don't substitude a cam or jam cleat on a reef line. Horn cleats should be used so that if gaskets are set, a clew or tack won't accidentally slip out and rip the sail at the gaskets.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

n/a
deleted

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3 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2003 : 20:15:47

Kirk,

In response to your question about speakers under the stern rail seats; I installed a pair of Poly Planar speakers under the seats on mine. I haven't had any problems with mounting them there and have found the location to work quite well. I routed the speaker wires as best I could through the tubing by drilling a very small and sealing with silicone. The bass response of those speakers was not very good, however the sub-woofer inside the boat takes care of the problem. Let me know if you need pictures.

Regards, Kevin Ray WB #469

Regards,
Kevin Ray - WB250 #469

Edited by - on

River Harley
Navigator

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132 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2003 : 19:46:59

Does anyone have a diagram on how the reefing system works on the 2002 C250? I'm still learning about the boat.

RH

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2003 : 10:20:59

River,

My 2000 c250wk came with a owners manual. In the manual was a picture of the reefing system. Check your manual it should be in there.

Bryan Beamer
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

Neal Foxworthy
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2003 : 15:14:57

The 2002 model also does not route the reefing line back to the cockpit

Neal Foxworthy
2002 WK 638
Puddin'

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
Captain

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USA
416 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2003 : 19:25:30

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The 2002 model also does not route the reefing line back to the cockpit <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I ran mine back through the unused block on the port side of the mast through the turning block mounted on the cabin, then through the clutch. Don't know if that is how Catalina wanted it setup but it doesn't matter to me as long as it works, which it has so far.

I went to the Chicago Strictly Sail show yesterday and am even more convinced than ever that for the price Frank provides one with more for the money than anybody else out there. There are a lot of nice boats out there!! I think I may have caught the three foot disease that C28 sure looks good<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>.

Ray Seitz C 250WB #628 Sea Major

Edited by - RAY SEITZ on 02/03/2003 19:32:46

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jkountz
1st Mate

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USA
48 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2003 : 21:48:42

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I think I may have caught the three foot disease that C28 sure looks good<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>.

Ray Seitz C 250WB #628 Sea Major
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I live and sail in Seattle. When I was buying my boat I looked at the C250K, C28 Mk II, and C310. I found the C28 claustrophobic; the spaces were very small and chopped up. The C250 was smaller but made much better use of the available space; it was open and inviting. The C250 was 30K, the C28 Mk II $69, and the C310 $95K.

The dealer purchased three boats on spec. A year later he still has the C28 Mk II, still unsold in his yard. Those C28’s are not moving very well here in the Northwest.

Skip the C28 and go straight to be C310.

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