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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Delaminating Tiller

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/10/2012 : 10:22:08

I think I might have mentioned it before but in case I haven't, I noticed recently that my tiller was "beginning" to delaminate.

Yesterday I finally talked my wife into going for a night sail and spending the night on the boat for the first time. We get to the boat and as soon as she steps down into the cockpit she leans on the tiller to keep her balance.

Yes, I hear cracking noises and the front end of the tiller is now a 1/2" lower than it was.

I step on the boat and confirm my suspicions. We're not going sailing after all. The tiller is still in one piece but it is definitely flopping up and down.

We had a good night sleeping on the boat and she wants to do it again in the future! Yea!!!

So my question to the" vast and unpaid research team" is, what is the best way to repair the tiller? It doesn't have any rot, it's just coming delaminated.

My thought is waterproof wood glue might be the easiest.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - on

Tomas Kruska
Admiral

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Czech Republic
522 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2012 : 11:54:48

Had the same as yours. Glued with epoxy using syringer between the layers, grinded smooth and then applied 3 coats of regular varnish.
I have tiller cover so after 3 years it still does looks like new.

If you don't have epoxy then get it, you will need it anyway for another boat projects.

Edited by - Tomas Kruska on 06/10/2012 11:55:37

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2012 : 12:02:19

Gary,
Your experience is reasonably close to mine, except when I used the tiller as a brace while moving around on the boat, the last foot or so snapped off in my hand. If you'd have asked me about the health of the tiller just before that, I'd have told you it was in great shape, after all, I'd just refinished it. Turns out the ash part of the lamination had dry rotted, while the mahogany was fine. I'd probe the lamination with an ice pick or something like that before you decide to try a repair.

If the wood proves sound, then I'd advise using thin epoxy but read this [url="http://www.epoxyproducts.com/penetrating4u.html"]article about thinned epoxies[/url] first.

I decided to make my own tiller after my regular one broke, and then a few months later found an emergency tiller for $25 on here. I figured it was worth the cost and that's what I'm currently using, while I refinish my handmade one.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2012 : 13:32:00

What kind/brand of epoxy should I use?

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 06/10/2012 : 14:22:38

I've been quite pleased using WEST Systems epoxy & various fillers. I believe any of the other brands such as System 3 & others will work just fine. Be prepared for sticker shock.

After reading the article I posted above, if I thought I needed thinned epoxy, I'd probably thin it with xylene per his article. I have some penetrating epoxy but my results with it have been so-so. I think it's made by CPES?

You'd probably be better off warming the epoxy components as well as the tiller (leaving all three in the sun for a while should be sufficient), just be prepared for a very fast pot time between mixing it and before the mixture "kicks" when it's no longer workable. I've had the opposite occur when I was mounting my Garelick scissors mount, the epoxy didn't want to cure because it was so cold outside. I ended up placing a propane heater under the holes to help speed it up. IIRC it took close to 9 hours for me to not be able to dent the epoxy with a thumb nail.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2012 : 15:22:49

I finally pulled the tiller out of it's cover a few minutes ago. It appears the glue has dried out and lost it's bond on several layers. The top two layers came apart with no effort. A couple of other layers are starting to delaminate in the middle but have the majority still holding a good bond.

There is no sign of rot so I'm going to repair it.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2012 : 16:42:45

Should I use 105A/206A or G/Flex?

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pfduffy
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2012 : 17:14:17

New tillers are not terribly expensive (I know...easy to spend other people's money). I would recommend replacing the tiller with a new one and repairing the old one to have on hand as an emergency tiller. Since I am already spending your money, I suggest getting new CD tiller straps as well that have the holes offset - so that all the attachment holes are not drilled through the same lamination. This way, you can have a complete emergency tiller ready to go.

Edited by - on

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2012 : 03:09:50

I have a spare tiller onboard in case the one in use gives up. It came with the boat when I bought it so I was thinking it was a good idea to keep in the dumpster. The tiller cover that came with the boat was short and the rudder end had begin to darken from the sun, however seemed to be intact otherwise. The hand end was cracked where the tiller extension hole was so I used epoxy to fill the crack clamped and let cure. (Marine Epoxy from Lowe's) Then I sanded and refinished. I did paint the rudder end with aluminum paint to line up with the stainless steel brackets so I would not continue to darken then ended up getting a new tiller cover from Catalina Direct that covers the full length.

Edited by - hewebb on 06/11/2012 03:11:11

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3463 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2012 : 03:32:04

Maybe as a temporary repair go with trying to fix the existing tiller but my thought is that I would spend the dough and get a new one from either West Marime or CD. I do not recall the exact costs but as was already mentioned, I do not think they are all that expensive to replace but obviously more expensive than fixing the old one.

If fixing it, it may also be a good time to consider in the future replacing it or utilizing it along with an improvement. I recall a few years back, there was a posting that someone posted a photo of a modified tiller that allowed it to be adjusted to a shorter length when having a number of guests onboard and there was a desire to have a shorter tiller so that it would not get in the way of others when tacking and moving the tiller to one side or the other. I had wanted to consider that for a future mod even though my tiller is right now in relatively good shape but I believe the photo in the past posting is no longer available. I have searched for the posting a few times and thought I had located it but with no photo. I do not believe there was much to the write-up but had the photo and so hard to pinpoint exactly who made the mod and see if we could get another photo loaded. I recall it being a short wood stock that was mounted in the tiller support bracket and then the tiller was attached on top of the wood stock with clamps that could be loosened, the tiller re-adjusted by sliding it aft to the length desired and then the clamps tightened.

Anyway, your immediate concern is fixing the existing tiller but once you do and if reconsidering eventually replacing it, you may if you see a benefit, consider this improvement along with a new tiller.

Edited by - OLarryR on 06/11/2012 03:35:13

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3463 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2012 : 03:47:54

I was just checking the cost of a new tiller with CD and WM. CD has it for $149 plus shipping - A bit pricey compared to fixing the old one. WM has a "B" design which is made to replace the Catalina 22 tiller and looks similar to ours. WM presently has a sale on it for $112. A local WM store could probably special order it since it is unlikely they have it in stock. You may be able to save on shipping costs if it is sent to your local store. At $112 and if no shipping, that's not too bad but still more pricey compared to repairing the old one laying out dough only for the epoxy, etc ...and if when you get done it can still look like original without the repair showing that would detract from it's appearance. Anyway, replacing vs repairing is an option and WM actually has a small sale going on based on checking their website this morning. If considering the WM "B" design, they have dimensions of it and it's base where it fits in the support. May want to compare dimensions to the original to see if it really is a close enough replacement to your original.

Edited by - OLarryR on 06/11/2012 03:50:42

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2012 : 05:19:09

Gorilla Glue.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2012 : 08:03:53

Never ordered anything from them, but not a bad price...

http://www.pyacht.com/hl-sailboat-tlliers.htm

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2012 : 09:51:57

Nice find Don... That's a winner...

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 18:29:07

I decided to go with Ray's idea of Gorilla Glue. As I was sanding the top layer of wood (very thin) I broke it in half. Decided to try out the Gorilla Glue on that piece to see how it works. The joint is now stronger than the surrounding wood.

Tomorrow evening I will glue the top piece to the 2nd and 3rd layers. Seems like this may work really well and it's 100% waterproof.

I also bought the Marine Epoxy from Lowes that Howard recommended. I'll probably have to use that on a section of the tiller that hasn't completely delaminated yet.

So far I'm in for $23.00.

Edited by - GaryB on 06/12/2012 18:30:07

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 18:32:42

What broke in half Gary? The tiller?

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5372 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 19:56:43

Regarding the spare tiller, you can make one out of a hardwood like red oak. It's relatively inexpensive at the home goods store and here's how I'd suggest you do it.
1. Get a 1"x6" piece that's 8 feet long.
2. From one end, trace out the tiller by using your current one. You can make the trace a little wider than your current tiller.
3. On the opposite end, flip the board around and trace it out once again. You should now have two non-interfering patterns of the tiller if you traced them correctly.
4. Using a hand saber-saw, or better yet, a jig saw, cut out the patterns.
5. Match the two patterns together side by side and epoxy them together.
6. Clamp and wait.
7. Once they're solid, get your belt or orbital sander and smooth them out, beginning with the glued seam, then out to the edges until they are nice and rounded. Do this for all but the tail stock, which should remain square.
8. Observe your current tiller and match it up. If you have a caliper, you can get the dimensions really exact, but you don't have to.
9. Match up the holes for the metal bars.
10. Remove the sawdust with a tack cloth, and varnish the heck out of the new tiller. Use a Q tip to varnish inside the screw holes. 4 coats or 5 should do.
An oak tiller may not be practical for all the time - it might warp or rot - but in a pinch, it's really strong and should not snap under load.
I made the same with some old mahogany I had laying around for my day sailor and it is awesome after 5 years!

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2012 : 04:37:21

Glueing up an old red Oak childrens school chair right now. Trying out a new Gorilla Glue that says it dries clear. Expands into the joints but still needs clamping up good to make the glue hold well. I find I hafta stay with the piece and scrape off the glue as it comes out of the joints for a few hours. So far it looks like the original glue is harder.

Used the regular Gorilla glue to clamp up two pieces of red oak board to make an outboard bracket. The glue joint will probably hold forever but the wood will soak up water and soften with time. One coat of poly I put on it came right off.

Had a red oak solid tiller made for me in the past and they are great.

Edited by - redeye on 06/13/2012 04:40:48

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2012 : 10:27:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 What broke in half Gary? The tiller?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The top couple layers of laminaton delaminated from the rest of the tiller completely (my tiller is now in three pieces). When the top layer delaminated from the 2nd layer is cracked at an angle across the strip. When I was sanding it yesterday I broke the top lamination in half at that crack. I used Gorila Glue to re-attach the two pieces.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/13/2012 : 11:34:40

I'm a firm believer in Gorilla glue and repairing stuff, but how much trust do you think you can place in your tiller when you're done repairing it? Unless you open up the other laminates, remove the old glue and re-glue them, you really don't know how sound they are. If some of the laminates are coming off that easily, I'd guess the others aren't far behind.

Playing devil's advocate here, what would you rather have, a potentially sketchy tiller, or spent the money to make or purchase a new one?

When my old tiller snapped off in my hand, I had no clue that there was anything wrong with it. I'd just refinished it and it looked great. Fortunately we weren't in bad conditions, and I don't think our boat guests even knew there was a problem.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2012 : 20:34:27

David,

I agree some of the other laminations are getting or will get loose over time. I'm not planning on going out in the bay until I get all of the laminations re-glued. The lake I sail on rarely gets any rougher than maybe a 1 foot chop and I'm never more than a mile or so from the dock so I'm not too worried about it. I have motored with the tiller off the boat before just to see how it handles and although it's hard to maintain a straight line it's not so bad that you can't get back to the dock.

Other than the glue between the laminations drying out the tiller is still very strong. By tomorrow afternoon I will have almost half of the laminations re-glued. I want to go out tomorrow evening for a short sail so I will probably put 3 or 4 hose clamps around the tiller just to make sure it doesn't come apart. After that I will work at getting the remaining laminations seperated and will have them all re-glued by next weekend.

Besides there's a good chance I won't go out tomorrow evening and if I do and I have a problem I'll call Tow Boat and use up some of the free towing service I've been paying for the past 3 years.

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