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Sad July 4th

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2012 : 18:45:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 Seems like the coasties (aka the Govt) are having a hard time retrieving the boat in 30 ft of water. The boat is "stuck" in the gunk at the bottom of the bay. I'm very surprised they can't raise the boat using floatation or tug boats.
Regs are good, I guess, unless folks completely ignore them. You can't regulate common sense.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Coasties don't refloat boats as far as I know... I'm guessing salvage company. Where did you read they were having trouble pulling it up?

Sten

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2012 : 19:19:51

The boat is in 65' feet of water...here is today's article from the local paper...http://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/fbi-will-try-again-wednesday-to-raise-boat-1.3828856

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2012 : 21:10:38

Hmmm... OK,FBI and Homicide involved. The vessel in the video does not look like a standard salvage vessel. Maybe the feds don't need a commercial salvage company. I would assume that it will take a lot of airbags to refloat that thing and that a crane or boom on a big floating object will be required from that depth.

As far as regulations and government involvement goes, I would like to point out that the guy who capsized the Mac 26 with 10 special needs kids and family aboard IS STILL OPERATIONAL! Both his website and his fakebook page references his overloaded sailing adventures for a donation non-profit. No rules, no regs, no problem...

sten

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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1225 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2012 : 08:06:30

Do you guys really think this guy had 27 life jackets? Really? Assuming he didn't then he is technically breaking the law. I agree, we don't need more regulation, plus how would that be enforced?

Is not a captain liable for any death on his/her vessel that results from the captain's poor judgement?

If the FBI is involved, it seems they are persueing criminal charges.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2012 : 09:40:26

Hmmm... "poor judgement"...

Let's say 27 people are too many for a 34' boat. By how many? Is 22 better? Who draws that line? How does the skipper know? By putting 25 people on, going out, and seeing if she rolls over? If not that, when it comes to criminal liability, who decides? Exactly what is the limit?

Looking at pix of Silverton 34s for sale, I see a small aft cockpit that might hold 8-10 tightly. Then there's the cabin that might hold 8-10 tightly (if those people are inclined to be in a cabin on a beautiful summer night watching fireworks). The flybridge, I'd guess, is big enough for maybe 7. So maybe there's "room" for 27, sardine style...

But does anybody want to bet that none of those people were on the foredeck rather than in the cabin? Weight way forward and up high (deck level and above) both work more against the stability of a boat than weight in the broad aft section and down low (cockpit and cabin levels).

It's too bad having people on a foredeck like that while under way with two big spinning props is not illegal--I hate seeing it around here--but like having 27 people on a 34-footer, generally it's not. And we can't "fry" a guy for doing something that's not illegal. He'd be negligent, perhaps criminally, if he failed to see something and ran into it--the law says he has to keep a proper watch. But rolling over? How is that illegal, even if it's stupid?

So now what?

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4021 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2012 : 15:34:23

The only reason they called in the FBI was that they are the best at being able to raise the boat with as little damage thus preserving any evidence. No laws for being stupid and they will never be able to determine how many life vests were on board. How many floated away? How many were his and how many were from the surrounding boats that were thrown at the people in the water?. Besides the ticket and fine for not having enough would be just a slap on the wrist. I think his punishment is already severe, He is going to re-live this every 4th of July for the rest of his life.

Edited by - islander on 07/11/2012 16:11:04

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2012 : 17:30:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Hmmm... "poor judgement"...

But rolling over? How is that illegal, even if it's stupid?

So now what?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Which is why George is still running his Heart of Sailing foundation. They couldn't find him responsible. No capacity plate. So he is probably still running tours on his Mac 26 with 10 souls aboard. Nobody can stop him. If he has the pfd's, he can collect the fees. And sadly, under his "Foundation" he doesn't have to have a Captain's license, nor is his boat ever going to be inspected.

sten

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2012 : 20:44:33

I agree the punishment already fits the "crime"... But again, how was he supposed to know?

An observation: Motor vehicles have published capacities for carrying and towing. How are they determined? Mostly by the manufacturers, presumably taking into consideration things like vehicle weight, wheelbase, track, brakes, tires,... Tow a boat (or U-Haul) above the limit, get into an accident, kill or hurt somebody, and you'll be toast. Better yet, you have some idea of how not to become toast!

Buildings have capacity limits (for fire safety). Planes have weight limits that even vary with air temperature and departure altitude...

Why shouldn't boat manufacturers be required to determine a safe capacity based on length, beam, empty center of gravity, deck height, flybridge height and size, and other obvious stability factors--for any size boat? If some of those ferries in the Far East had to do that, they might still be afloat and the hundreds of souls aboard might still be alive. Same with a tour boat on Lake Champlain, a Mac 26 in San Diego, a C-25 in Colorado, a Silverton on Long Island Sound,...

Yes, it doesn't happen often. It hardly ever happens. But do you know the safe capacity of your boat? If you "tipped over" for any reason and somebody died, would you feel confident that you were not operating negligently? I.e., would you be able to live with yourself?

What if the manufacturers were required to give us some help, based on sound marine architectural calculations and perhaps some actual tests?

Then, you could be a meat-head and exceed the number, assuming you'd never get caught and/or "what do those manufacturers know--they're just covering their asses"... Or, you might decide somebody knows a few things you don't know, and to protect the passengers for whom you're ultimately responsible, you'll pay attention.

I'm game!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/11/2012 20:53:44

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2012 : 04:12:50

Dave,
My runabout came with that exact placard: carrying capacity and number of persons but it was a smaller boat. At what point/length does that stop? Sailboats/Powerboats?

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2012 : 06:09:51

Up to 20 feet, "motorized" monohull. As I recall, my 17' Daysailer didn't have the placard, presumably because it was built with no particular provision for a motor, and was designed to be used without one--even though I (and most customers) had one on the transom.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/12/2012 06:37:08

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