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Cunningham rigging

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MrKawfey
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Initially Posted - 07/12/2012 : 19:26:31

First of many questions: I have not been able to find a good answer (maybe there is none) as to why you would use a hook for the cringle when rigging a cunningham vs running the line through the cringle and then tying it off to the boom or mast.

I am going to be rigging a cunningham and I am wondering what the tradeoffs are when deciding between a line from an eyelet through the cringle and then down vs just a hook in the cringle.

Also if running the line from an eyelet, would it be better to mount the eyelet on the boom or mast. All of my lines are led back to the cockpit so in either case it would drop to a block at the base of the mast and then to the deck organizer and then rope clutch.

By the way, I have the sliding gooseneck, but it is pinned down on the stop. I could lower the stop and use a proper downhaul instead of a cunningham if someone could convince me that it was better.
Thanks

Chris
Sacandaga Lake, NY
1984 C25 SRSK
"Les's Moor"

Edited by - on

cshaw
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Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 06:30:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MrKawfey
 First of many questions: I have not been able to find a good answer (maybe there is none) as to why you would use a hook for the cringle when rigging a cunningham vs running the line through the cringle and then tying it off to the boom or mast.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi! I also use a sliding gooseneck, and I have a 6:1 tackle to pull it down to tension the main's luff. 6:1 seems overkill, but I have found its a lot easier to adjust accurately without having to use a lot of muscle to do it. You also want to get reasonable tension on the luff when the wind is up to keep the draft forward. You just do not want to "over-tension" the sail and damage it. The blocks are small sized using 5/15" line. I use a hook that is on the same pin as that goes through the tack grommet of the main. I use the hook for my cunningham as well as for reefing. Using the hook is quick and easy for me or my crew.

It does require going to the mast to use, but I have found (at least for me) the adjustments like outhaul and downhaul and reefing do not work as well for me when done from the cockpit (and I sail solo a fair amount of time).

Cheers!

Chuck

Edited by - on

MrKawfey
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Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 18:09:54

Thanks for the response Chuck. I agree that 6:1 sounds like overkill, but you got me thinking that some amount of advantage might be wise. Maybe a 3:1 or 4:1. Also I should mention that I have a loose footed main and I have a grommet between the tack and the first reef point for a cunningham.

Anybody have an opinion as to which is better, pulling down on the gooseneck or pulling down on the cunningham grommet?

Edited by - on

MrKawfey
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Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 18:25:03

Ok, so i found a great old thread:
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=1122
that covers the topic of downhaul vs cunningham in really good detail.
However I would still like to ask the following:
If you are using a true cunningham in the appropriate cringle, is it better to use a hook or a line passed through and back down to a padeye or cleat?

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 20:02:59

I prefer a line through the cringle from an eyestrap on the mast. Multi purchase can be led back on the cabin top, just remove the cam cleat from the bottom block.

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MrKawfey
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Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 21:31:32

Frank, do you know off the top of your head what diameter line you use? I would guess anything 1/4" or larger would take the load, but i am wondering, in general, if a larger or smaller diameter line slides through the sail grommets easier?
Not too big a deal with the Cunningham as the travel is small, but i will be redoing my reefing system soon and that requires a lot of line to slide smoothly through grommets.
Also, i have seen cheek blocks sewn into sails before. Has anyone ever done this themselves? Is it worth it to reduce friction through the grommet?

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pastmember
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Response Posted - 07/14/2012 : 11:30:55

I have always used line appropriate to the hardware I have. On my '82 I bought Spinlock clutches that would hold 1/4" line so all my lines on the '82 were 1/4". On my current boat I left the old line holders in place so I use 3/8" halyards and 1/4" for control lines with new stoppers that hold those lines. Smaller than 1/4" is hard to handle and even 1/4" are a problem unless you always wear gloves, which I do. Line sizes and hardware choices begin with what you are willing to do. I have designed from the ground up (the '82) and bought really fun toys. I have utilized what was already there in terms of deck organizers and clutches, (my '89 and my '86 Starwind 223), but still upgraded blocks and line. As I have often said, walk the docks and look at well found boats, see what you like, read the catalogs cover to cover to decide what you can afford and never pass up a chance to make a boat better... for you.

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ed_spengeman
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Response Posted - 07/15/2012 : 14:30:02

I may be wrong, I haven't been yet today, but I was under the impression that as the wind increases on the main, the draft moves moves back. By setting the cunningham, you are moving the draft forward, back to the midline, not adjusting the luff.

Interested to hear opinions.

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Stu Jackson C34
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Response Posted - 07/15/2012 : 18:56:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
If you are using a true cunningham in the appropriate cringle, is it better to use a hook or a line passed through and back down to a padeye or cleat?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Line through. I tried a hook, it kept falling out. I used to use a 3:1, after a while the block disintegrated and I just use the line through, works just as well. And this is on our C34.

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MrKawfey
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Response Posted - 07/15/2012 : 21:25:38

Stu, I think that's where i am leaning. Is your line anchored to the mast or boom?

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cshaw
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Response Posted - 07/16/2012 : 04:24:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ed_spengeman
 I may be wrong, I haven't been yet today, but I was under the impression that as the wind increases on the main, the draft moves moves back. By setting the cunningham, you are moving the draft forward, back to the midline, not adjusting the luff.

Interested to hear opinions.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Adjusting the luff tension is what pulls the draft back forward. Thats what is meant by "adjusting the luff". As the wind increases, you should do the same thing for your jib either with the jib halyard or with a cunningham in the jib.

The line up to the cunningham and back down is certainly the simplest approach, and for most wind conditions is enough, but as the wind increases it takes more and more force to actually move the draft enough to make a difference (and being an aging wimp, the additional purchase makes it easy for me, and my 6 year old grandson!!)

For "me", having the hook attached to the same pin as goes thru the tack gromment works the best since my sliding gooseneck allows me to simply ease the downhaul, raise the gooseneck/hook up to the cunningham grommet and hook into it, and then re-tension the downhaul. No extra lines, or hardware, other than the hook. Nothing to fall out either, since it just hangs there when not used, and is under tension when it is used.

Chuck

Edited by - on

TCurran
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Response Posted - 07/16/2012 : 09:20:32

"...and I sail solo a fair amount of time" Chuck, after this past weekend, your solo time may increase

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cshaw
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Response Posted - 07/16/2012 : 09:54:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TCurran
 "...and I sail solo a fair amount of time" Chuck, after this past weekend, your solo time may increase

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Tom!!

Yes, that may well be true, since the promise that the beatings will continue till morale improves does not seem to be working? <grin>

-c-

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shnool
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Response Posted - 07/16/2012 : 17:33:07

Silly me, I just run the line up through the cringle, and back down to the base of the mast. I use a block to route the line to the starboard cabintop. No double or triple purchase, just a single. Yep, takes some umph to keep the tension up and all, but it works.

Also, I am way more wary of the jib halyard tension as mentioned above.

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Stu Jackson C34
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Response Posted - 07/17/2012 : 15:26:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MrKawfey
 Stu, I think that's where i am leaning. Is your line anchored to the mast or boom?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Tied to a cleat on the mast, up through the cringle and back to the cockpit to cam cleat.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 07/18/2012 : 07:21:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MrKawfey
 Anybody have an opinion as to which is better, pulling down on the gooseneck or pulling down on the cunningham grommet?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It really depends on how you set the downhaul on your boom, but generally (without getting too confusing), when you raise your mainsail, you should raise the sail as close as possible to the top of the mast, leaving only enough space to make adjustments, and adjust the luff tension using the main halyard, giving it the appropriate amount of tension in relation to the wind speed. That spreads the maximum amount of sail area to the wind. If the wind increases, the best way to readjust the luff tension is by readjusting the main halyard, for the same reason, i.e., it spreads the maximum amount of sail area to the wind. Using the cunningham puts a wrinkle in the sail, which makes that sail area essentially wasted, because it creates turbulence. In some classes, the owner is required to put stripes at the top of the mast and at the boom, to provide visible proof that the sail is not bigger than the class dimensions. In that case, a cunningham can help tension a sail that has been cut by the sailmaker in a way to absolutely maximize the sail area, while keeping the sail class-legal. In our class, we specify a maximum luff length, and we don't require mast stripes. Thus, a cunningham is not needed for that particular purpose.

On the Chesapeake, the most skilled racers I have crewed for prefer to tension the mainsail luff with the halyard, not the cunningham. When the sail is heavily loaded, it is, of course, nearly impossible to increase halyard tension, so their practice is to either luff the mainsail briefly while a crew member cranks it tighter with a winch, or, if they are going to tack soon, they will tighten the halyard while the mainsail is luffing during a tack. Luffing the mainsail briefly doesn't result in much loss of boat speed, especially for those bigger, heavier boats, and especially for masthead-rigged boats like the C25, because the genoa is still driving the boat while the mainsail is luffing, and, on a masthead rig, the sail that is providing the most drive is the genoa, not the mainsail.

When you luff the mainsail briefly to readjust halyard tension, you readjust the tension all along the luff. If you try to adjust luff tension without unloading the sail, or by using the cunningham while it's loaded, then you are really only moving 4-5 sail slides above the cunningham. The tension doesn't get spread uniformly to all the sail slides until the next time you tack or gybe the boat. Thus, by taking the load off the mainsail when you adjust the halyard tension, the tension will be spread evenly over the sail slides along the entire length of the luff when you harden the mainsheet again, and the boat will immediately get the benefit of the properly tensioned sail, without having to wait until the next time you tack or gybe.

It seems counter-intuitive to luff a sail while you're racing, but it only takes 4-5 seconds, even on a big boat, and the loss of speed is usually miniscule, while the genoa is still driving the boat, unless the boat is driving into a really bad chop.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/18/2012 07:30:46

MrKawfey
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Response Posted - 07/18/2012 : 09:46:25

Thanks Steve, now i have some work to do lubing my sail slugs. Even with a cabin top winch for the halyard i cant apply enough tension to pull tight on the downhaul.

And yes, that means i cant get my main all the way to the top of the mast.

Edited by - MrKawfey on 07/18/2012 09:48:06

Ape-X
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Response Posted - 07/18/2012 : 11:41:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MrKawfey
 Thanks Steve, now i have some work to do lubing my sail slugs. Even with a cabin top winch for the halyard i cant apply enough tension to pull tight on the downhaul.

And yes, that means i cant get my main all the way to the top of the mast.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Definitely some track/slug issues. Raising my main (standard rig) is a 5 second affair as long as we are into the wind. Dropping is also easy, though the wire to rope connection sometimes hangs up on the lower stays. But it all free falls to the boom. We do have the topping lift on when raising/lowering.

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cshaw
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Response Posted - 07/18/2012 : 18:07:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby

When you luff the mainsail briefly to readjust halyard tension, you readjust the tension all along the luff. If you try to adjust luff tension without unloading the sail, or by using the cunningham while it's loaded, then you are really only moving 4-5 sail slides above the cunningham. The tension doesn't get spread uniformly to all the sail slides until the next time you tack or gybe the boat. Thus, by taking the load off the mainsail when you adjust the halyard tension, the tension will be spread evenly over the sail slides along the entire length of the luff when you harden the mainsheet again, and the boat will immediately get the benefit of the properly tensioned sail, without having to wait until the next time you tack or gybe.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Steve, I may have misinterpreted what you said (above), but I think the trick of unloading the sail to adjust luff tension and have it spread out evenly along the luff applies equally to adjusting the tension with the halyard or the cunningham. And adjusting either is equally effective in moving draft. Yes, the cunningham can introduce wrinkles, but I have not noticed that they materially effect my performance (even though in theory I suppose they would). Hitting one wave wrong seems to have a lot more effect than wrinkles below the cunningham and above the boom for me....

A friend of mine suggested using a candle in the luff slot in-between the slugs attached to the headboard. The idea is the candle wax keeps the luff groove lubricated. I tried it and it is amazing how well it works! And it leaves no mess and costs very little. Uncleat the halyard and the sail drops without binding. So, I suspect it also helps with avoiding binding slugs that contribute to uneven luff tension?

Cheers,

Chuck

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 07/18/2012 : 18:48:18

You're right, Chuck, that unloading the mainsail by luffing it makes it easier to adjust the luff tension, whether you adjust it by using the halyard or by using a cunningham. There were times when I found it nearly impossible to increase the luff tension on my C25 without luffing the sail. As boats and sails get bigger, the loads get bigger, and it becomes increasingly difficult.

In my mind, I have debated whether the smallish wrinkles that result from using a cunningham really matter in the overall scheme of things, but I decided that, from a pure standpoint of functionality, it is just as easy to adjust luff tension with the halyard as it is with a cunningham, especially if the halyard is led to the cockpit and to a winch. Thus, all other things being equal, I'd rather not have those wrinkles as to have them. Wrinkles create turbulence, and turbulence is baaaaad. A smooth, laminar air flow is goooood. I don't see any reason to tolerate turbulence if you have an equally satisfactory alternative.

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cshaw
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Response Posted - 07/19/2012 : 05:38:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 You're right, Chuck, that unloading the mainsail by luffing it makes it easier to adjust the luff tension, whether you adjust it by using the halyard or by using a cunningham.

I don't see any reason to tolerate turbulence if you have an equally satisfactory alternative.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Steve!

I do agree with you about the wrinkles causing turbulence, but in the conditions I end up needing to use the cunningham in, it sure seems they are a secondary concern for me. However, an avalanche is made up of a lot of tiny snowflakes, so enough secondary things do add up! And, the wrinkles are not pretty!!!! <grin>

For better or worse I have kept my main halyard winch on the mast to clean up the cabin top and make room for the jib and spinnaker halyards on the port cabin top, and the spinnaker pole controls on the starboard side. In addition, I have a sliding gooseneck, so my initial luff tension adjustment is to simply tighten the downhaul to pull down the gooseneck. Since I built my main to maximum dimensions, I do not have a lot of extra travel available with the sliding gooseneck or the halyard (since its already at full hoist). So, using the cunningham is easier and faster at least for me.

The easier and faster is, to me, the most important thing to consider, since luff tension adjustment is an important consideration in keeping the boat balanced (which I place a HIGH importance on!). So whatever is easier and faster (cunningham or main halyard) for each skipper and boat layout is the right approach to me.

Lazy jacks and the main halyard led to the cockpit (and even a dousing line on the main and also on the jib if not roller furling) make a lot of sense especially when sailing short handed and if you have the realestate on the cabin top.

Cheers!

Chuck

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 07/19/2012 : 07:23:54

My C25 was rigged similarly to yours, Chuck, and, like you, I sometimes used the cunningham, and sometimes added tension by sitting on the boom. There are so many different ways we can rig our boats that, IMO, there's no one right way to do all these things. We do what works best for us in any given circumstance. But, that being said, I think it's always interesting to ponder all the pros and cons of the different techniques, and to think about how other people do the same things.

Edited by - on

putzmeister
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Response Posted - 07/20/2012 : 07:42:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 . . . I sometimes used the cunningham, and sometimes added tension by sitting on the boom . . .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You must have had one heck of a long tiller extension.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 07/20/2012 : 09:16:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by putzmeister
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 . . . I sometimes used the cunningham, and sometimes added tension by sitting on the boom . . .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You must have had one heck of a long tiller extension.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When I was serious about a race, I had crew, but when racing casually, I often raced singlehanded and, instead of having a very long tiller extension, I learned to run very fast from the cockpit to the mast and back. I didn't always make it back before the boat decided to veer off in another direction.

Edited by - on

cshaw
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Response Posted - 07/22/2012 : 06:20:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 There are so many different ways we can rig our boats that, IMO, there's no one right way to do all these things. We do what works best for us in any given circumstance. But, that being said, I think it's always interesting to ponder all the pros and cons of the different techniques, and to think about how other people do the same things.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree completely! I have learned a lot through the years doing that!!

Cheers!

Chuck

Edited by - on

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