Association Forum - Why Rope Halyards?

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Why Rope Halyards?

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Sam Cyphers
1st Mate

Member Avatar

USA
29 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/13/2012 : 16:29:34

Ive seen some chatter recently about switching over to rope halyards all the way throughout but Im having a hard time understand the benefit. As I see it the cable will always outlast the rope, so why ever place a less reliable line where a more reliable once stood? Whats the logic behind this?

Please tell me what Im missing because if for some reason rope is providing better benefits, then Im switching tomorrow.

Edited by - on

MrKawfey
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
124 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 17:58:38

I switched because I moved my halyards to internal. I was told that if the wire was in there then they would make a lot of noise slapping. I suppose that may be true, but when the main sail is down the rope part will be up inside the mast and the wire will be outside. The other reason I switched is that I would have less freedom with my exit plate location because the wire-to-rope section would not be able to pass through.

Let me put on my engineers hat for a moment though. I agree that wire is superior to rope as far as longevity, but you are not replacing the rope with wire, only shortening the length by half. All parts have some probability of failure and by adding the wire you have just added several new failure modes even if they have a small probability of occurring.
Think of it this way: For all line, from shackle to bitter end, every inch has some chance of failure and each component has a chance of failure (shackle, eye splice, etc.). When you use the wire/line combo you reduce the chance of an intermediate break by half (because the wire is more reliable) but you add two additional splices and associated hardware that could fail. Now the question is, is likely hood of failure at the new splices higher than half of the rope reliability. That I don't know, but my experience tells me that those areas are almost always the weakest not the line itself.

In addition, we are talking about two different issues. One is unexpected failures and the other is service life. I really don't know which is better for unexpected failures. If the breaking load of the wire and the rope are the same then the likelihood of failure comes down to other, less easily determined factors (manufacturing tolerances, quality control etc.). If you are talking about service life you still have to replace the rope part on the same schedule regardless of which set up you use. With the combo set up you are going to be adding a new rope to an old wire a few times before you replace the wire too. With an all rope setup you have a totally new halyard every few years.

Now, let me put my sailor's hat back on. The wire is far superior when it comes to stretch. Only the very best most high tech rope is now approaching the elasticity of wire. If you are trying to control sail shape in heavy winds this may be important to you. Also, I believe (correct me if I am wrong) but the wire will result in less windage aloft. This is not an issue for me because my halyards are internal, but I do have the stretch issue.

So, I apologize for the long winded response, but I apologize even more because after all that there is still no clear winner. I think the best of all worlds would be NE Ropes V-12 all line run internal. Low stretch, no windage, lowest number of failure points. But I would hate to see what the cost would be, especially considering you would have to replace it 3 times as often as wire.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 19:35:24

I have Vectran halyards, V-100, with a polyester cover. It can be swapped end for end or shortened on the mainsail end to compensate for wear (haven't had to yet), it is stronger by weight than wire so there is less weight aloft, and stretch is 0.5% at 15% load. With the 6 mm line on my main and about 40' between the headboard and the halyard cleat, that is about 2" of stretch with a 675# load.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2402 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 19:55:47

IMHO,
Wire to rope halyards still have a rope tail and it will be low tech crap. A good wire to rope spliced halyard is certainly better than the knot to thimble junk Catalina used but still neither as serviceable or as strong as modern line. All rope halyards are easier to change or flip. Stock Catalina halyards can catch at the thimble under the mast tangs in high wind and create dangerous situations when trying to gat a sail down in high wind. All line allows you to spec longer lines which make running lines to the cockpit easier. There really is no defense of rope to wire halyards that holds up.

Chris, I believe you are wrong on the stretch issue, if wire did not stretch we would not need adjustable turnbuckles. I think Dave's V-100 has lower stretch than the stock wire section. I also have never seen a fishhook on rope. I think I sailed twice with the stock halyards on my '82 before I bought Vectran halyards.

Buy new halyards and enjoy the experience, upgrading a boat is very satisfying.

Edited by - on

MrKawfey
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
124 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 21:19:23

Frank, it's important to mention the difference between elastic (not permanent) and plastic (permanent) deformation. Everything has some amount of elastic deformation under load, but traditionally, steel wire will not elastically deform (stretch and rebound) as much as rope. Wire rigging will creep over time under constant load hence the need for turnbuckle adjustment. I hesitate to call the permanent elongation of the rigging truly plastic because I would guess that most of it comes from the bundle tightening and unwinding and only a small amount of it coming from true plastic deformation of the individual wires.
Also, I say "traditionally" because I don't know if some of these super high end ropes have managed to beat wire when it comes to stretch. For the typical midrange material they still lose to wire.

For a super quick check: NE ropes website shows 5/16 Sta-set (typical C25 halyard) stretches 1.8% under a 500lb load. Calculating stretch for 1/8 ss wire under same load gives about 0.2% stretch. Roughly 10x more stretch from the rope.

Despite all that, i whole heartedly agree that all rope halyards are the way to go. If stretch is an issue, just buy a higher end rope. And to address the OP's premise, yes wire will last longer than rope but you are not comparing a piece of wire to a piece of rope. You are comparing a system of rope, wire, splices, thimbles and eyes to a system of rope and one splice. As Frank mentioned there are lots of ways the combo system can fail and fewer ways the all rope system can fail.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 21:38:02

I can think of two reasons documented by forum members over the years.
1. If you let go of a wire halyard the weight of the wire can pull the halyard up far enough where you cannot reach it, (runaway halyard)
2. The wire halyards will cut through the sheaves in the masthead at a much greater rate than a rope halyard.
All the rest of the arguments are probably true but #1 is one I have seen mentioned a lot in earlier years (before most boats converted to rope halyards).

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2012 : 06:46:45

One nice thing about all-rope halyards is that they'll extend farther, making it easier to tie them off when I'm not using the boat. The wire section of the wire/rope halyards were barely longer than the mast height, so I couldn't tie them off to a lifeline, the mast, or my jib bag.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2012 : 09:05:59

I replaced my wire-to-rope halyards with CD's Krypton Spectra all-rope. Regarding stretch, my furler required tension from the halyard to hold the drum steady. I hoisted the jib in the furler at the beginning of the season, put some significant tension on it with the mast winch, cleated the line, and left it untouched for the entire season. The drum stayed solidly in place from the tension for a good five months. If it had stretched an inch, the furler drum would have turned and I'd have to re-tension the halyard.

Catalina Direct list the following benefits from all-rope halyards:

- Eliminate noise and damage to the mast caused by wire halyards slapping the mast

- Eliminate fish hooks in the wire that can cause injury

- Eliminate the wire to line splice that jams at the masthead and prevents the halyard shackle reaching the deck

- Provides for easier headsail changes in windy conditions

I would add, as mentioned, less wear and tear on the sheaves at the mast-head. Also, my original jib halyard was hard to cleat at the mast because the wire came too close to the cleat. (With a roller, I had no reason to lead it back to the cockpit--nor was it long enough to do that.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/14/2012 09:08:47

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

Members Avatar

844 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2012 : 15:29:34

You can't get meathooks from line halyards.

Edited by - on

MrKawfey
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
124 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2012 : 12:30:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Please tell me what Im missing because if for some reason rope is providing better benefits, then Im switching tomorrow. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So now I think the question we all want answered is "did Sam go out and buy all rope halyards?"

Edited by - on

hubbardbilly
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2013 : 13:08:02

My 78 C25 still has the line-wire splice. Will the stock sheaves handle say a 1/4" rope halyard without any retrofitting? I dot plan to drop the mast before this season.

Edited by - on

CarbonSink62
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
208 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2013 : 13:38:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hubbardbilly
 My 78 C25 still has the line-wire splice. Will the stock sheaves handle say a 1/4" rope halyard without any retrofitting? I dot plan to drop the mast before this season.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think that 1/4" is too light and it will stretch too much.

Ken

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2013 : 14:19:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hubbardbilly
 My 78 C25 still has the line-wire splice. Will the stock sheaves handle say a 1/4" rope halyard without any retrofitting? I dot plan to drop the mast before this season.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The sheaves should be replaced. The last time I bought C25 sheaves, they weren't expensive, and they're not difficult to replace.

My strongest objection to the wire halyard is that, because it is thin, the wire can easily jump off the sheave. It happened twice on my boat, and the result was that the sail jammed. It couldn't be raised all the way, and it couldn't be brought down. IMO, there isn't enough space for the much thicker rope halliard to jam itself into.

My C&C 35 has all rope halliards (not the high tech racing stuff), and I have never thought their stretchiness was consequential. Dacron sails are the source of far more stretch than rope halliards. If you are a serious racer, you will probably want to spend the money for high tech cordage, but for most sailors, I don't think it's needed.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2013 : 15:23:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by CarbonSink62
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hubbardbilly
 My 78 C25 still has the line-wire splice. Will the stock sheaves handle say a 1/4" rope halyard without any retrofitting? I dot plan to drop the mast before this season.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think that 1/4" is too light and it will stretch too much.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Splice 3/16" or 1/4" dyneema (Amsteel Blue) to double braid and it won't stretch much at all and provide way more strength than necessary. The splice is pretty easy to do (I find it similar in difficult to a double braid eye splice). This won't prevent the line from jumping the sheave however.

I do agree that dropping the mast and changing sheaves the best approach. This really does require dropping the mast though, and I could see wanting to delay that until the off season. On the other hand it is a lot easier to drop a mast on a Catalina 25 standard rig than most sailboats.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2402 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2013 : 21:51:54

Only cheap line stretches.

Edited by - on

hubbardbilly
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2013 : 04:25:00

Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to try to stick with what I've got for this season since the boat is almost ready to be launched and I don't have the time or labor force to drop the mast right now.

I'm not too happy with the condition of the existing rope-to-wire rope condition and I'd hate for the splice at the wire to give way. I'll do some inspecting next time I'm at the boatyard.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2013 : 09:38:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hubbardbilly
 I'm not too happy with the condition of the existing rope-to-wire rope condition and I'd hate for the splice at the wire to give way.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'm trying to remember how the wire was connected to the rope on my original halyards (which I replaced ASAP)... Was it a thimble spliced into the wire, with an eye splice in the rope through the thimble? If so, you could cut the old rope off and tie the new rope to the thimble using something like a [url="http://www.animatedknots.com/duncan/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com#Movie"]Duncan knot[/url]. An eye-splice in the rope would be more elegant, but probably tedious to do with the halyard on the mast.

(BTW, in case you wondered, in my "curmudgeon's vocabulary", "rope" is a material and a "line" is a functional component that can be made of rope, wire (cable), chain, or a combination of these. Double-braid and twisted nylon are ropes, while halyards, sheets, rodes, etc. are lines. So that explains my usage--YMMV.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/30/2013 09:49:23

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.