Association Forum - Jib Halylard PARTS!

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Jib Halylard PARTS!

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

moserd
Navigator

Member Avatar

USA
149 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/30/2012 : 18:14:22

After determining that all was well at the mast electric connector I decided to drop the mast to check on the lights (banging on mast used to work!). To do so I pulled the boat (2005 WK) with my trailer which is a BIG pain. I next used the technique that my 'dealer' had demonstrated to 'drop' the mast which consisted of.

Raise the trailer forward support (my trailer has the mast raising option)
Mount the aft mast support
Secure the JIB halyard
Connected the other end of jib halyard to the winch cable.
Loosened (somewhat) the backstay.
Installed the provided 'baby' stays
Applied pressure to the halyard with winch
Attempted to remove forestay pin.

No joy
Loosened backstay some more.
Applied a little more pressure

AND BANG, jib halyard parted! Keep in mind that this halyard is never used since I have a furler for the jib so it should be in good shape. My son who was cranking claims to not have exerted much pressure but the winch is quite powerful; maybe we overpowered it.

Thank goodness I could not remove the forestay pin and nothing fell.

But now I need to replace the halyard AND get the mast down.

I have read the manual and noted that Catalina recommends using a mast strap; which I have just ordered and the main halyard (which fortunately I still have)

So the question is:

Should I remove the backstay?
Do I need to loosen any of the other stays?

What procedure do you 'guys' use?

Furthermore; how do I replace the parted jib halyard? How do I get the new one back into the mast?

Thanks in advanced for the expert advice.

Don

Don Moser

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2272 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2012 : 18:48:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by moserd
 Secure the JIB halyard
Connected the other end of jib halyard to the winch cable.
...
Applied pressure to the halyard with winch
...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I need to get a better understanding of exactly what you mean here. What did you secure the JIB halyard to? I hope it was the cleat at the base of the mast.

Also, what is the "other end" of the jib halyard? I assume it is the end with the shackle.

And after connecting the other end of the halyard, why did you "apply pressure" to it? You should have actually started letting the strap out from the winch so that the mast would start to pivot backwards. Applying pressure was exactly the wrong thing to do. Although, if your halyard was weak enough to break, maybe it's a good thing that you did this before lowering the mast, since a failure of the halyard in this situation could be a life-ending mistake. It was much better for the halyard to fail before you detached the forestay.

When I researched how to do this (with a gin pole in my case), it appears that early models of this boat recommended using the jib halyard, but later models recommended the webbing that was raised up just beneath the spreaders using he main halyard.

I am so cautious about this dangerous maneuver that I use BOTH the jib halyard and a second line that goes halfway up the mast. I believe that redundancy is critically important for this potentially dangerous operation.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by moserd
 ...
Loosened (somewhat) the backstay...

...Should I remove the backstay?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
WARNING: This advice only applies to boats with a split backstay

I remove the port split of my backstay, and leave the starboard side connected. This gives enough slack to remove the clevis pin at the bow chainplate. However, in order to remove the port backstay, I need to let out the turnbuckle A LOT. (Be sure not to let it out so much that it releases - that would be another potentially fatal mistake.)

Edited by - on

moserd
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2012 : 19:11:31

Thanks for the response; let me try to clarify the obviously confusing situation.

First of all the jib halyard. One end is routed via a turning block at the base of the mast to the port rope clutch which is locked and then wrapped around the port winch, snubbed by the self tailing winch AND then tied off with a two half hitch knot at the winch.

The reason I was applying some force is that I cannot get the forestay pin out; too much tension on the pin. This is why I was backing off on the backstay; maybe not enough eh?

So you don't loosen any other shrouds eh? Good information.

Any idea how to feed the new halyard into the mast?

Thanks,

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

Members Avatar

USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2012 : 20:24:45

The backstay will prevent the forestay going slack, and thus prevent removal of the pin.

We totally release the backstay before trying to apply tension to the jib to pull the mast forward in order to remove the tension on the pin.

I do not understand your description of your jib halyard tensioning.

If the concept is to have one end of the halyard secured to the bow, and the other ran down to the block at the base of the mast and then to the winch, that sounds pretty risky! Someone would have to be in the cockpit during mast lowering process.... ie. located where the mast would fall if the line broke! Yikes!

Securing one end of the jib halyard to the mast cleat (we take a few turns around the mast below the cleat) and then using the trailer winch to pull down and forwards on the other end of the halyard keeps everyone out of harms way. If the mast did fall, it would make an almighty crash, but there should not be anyone in harms way.

We raise and lower our mast as a matter of routine every trip, it's no big deal for us. But we still take precautions to stay safe.

Hope that helps.

Paul

Edited by - on

moserd
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2012 : 04:20:52

Thanks for the response, I guess did not do a good job explaining the halyard but yes one end is secured to the clutch and the other is connected to the winch; just as you described. So I supposed I did not release the backstay enough.... :( New halyard on the way AND a mast strap this time...

How about running the new halyard in the mast, anyone got any ideas on that one?

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2012 : 06:25:20

I disconnect one side of the split backstay completely. That gives plenty of slack to disconnect the forestay while still preventing the mast from falling.

Edited by - on

Tradewind
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
531 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2012 : 07:09:33

Also loosen the shrouds to help slack the headstay in order to remove the headstay clevis pin.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2272 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2012 : 07:19:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by moserd
 

So you don't loosen any other shrouds eh?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I loosen the shrouds. Search "gin pole" for more info on what some of us do. There's a lot that's already been discussed.

Edited by - on

DonaldM
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2012 : 07:01:04

For re-routing the jib halyard, how about using electrician's fish tape, insert at the halyard mast exit, pull out at the top (with mast down)? Have not tried it myself, though.
Don

Edited by - on

Jack Schafer
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
112 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2012 : 09:23:38

It has always been a problem for me to remove the pin on the headstay. I have an early 250 and use the gin pole. When you finally get the mast down, add a block to the forward part of the mast crane as if you were to fly a spinnaker. Add spinnaker Halyard and have someone use that to help take pressure off the headstay pin.Continue to use the the jib Halyard as the main source of leverage,but use the spinnaker halyard as a little more advantage to pull the mast forward. I think the weight of the roller furling foil adds to the pressure on the head stay. Just think ,now you will be able to fly a spinnaker,maybe.

As to replacing the Jib Halyard use a fish tape, remove base plate from mast,push tape from top of mast to base, pull up string to top, fish from mast jib halyard exit hole to base, attach string to tape and pull to exit hole. Then use string to pull the halyard through.
Good Luck

Edited by - on

moserd
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2012 : 10:21:40

Thanks for the advice; I'll give it a try this weekend. All this trouble due to lights up the mast! :)

Edited by - on

mowrangler
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
66 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2012 : 14:32:16

Ironically I was dropping my mast last night to do the same thing, so this is pretty good timing. I had not considered loosing the backstay a bit prior to trying to get the pin out of the bottom of the firler, but can see how that would certainly make things a bit easier and will probably do that before putting it back up again. I opted for a come-along to pull the firler housing down a bit rather than having to rely on the jib halyard. I have one of the early C250s and use a Gin Pole to lower the mast as well, and while you may not have the same configuration it seems that either this or the A Frame mast lowering setups are relatively common. I modified the one that came to the boat to be a bit more like Arlyn's on http://pages.suddenlink.net/arlyn/sailing/ginpole.html

Good luck!

Edited by - on

hughbamford
Deckhand

Members Avatar

Australia
17 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2012 : 21:11:52

Hi All,

Thought I'd ring in on this one as I'm currently having my new 250WK rigged.

The rigger discussed this with me as an issue he could see down the track,he was rigging the yacht yesterday and had huge trouble getting the clevis pin in. His idea is to put an 8:1 block system on the back stay this way you can tension the backstay for racing and better effectiveness in high winds and then loosen it when you want to drop the mast.

I'm going with his suggestion for the time being and I'll let you know how it goes.

Cheers,

Hugh

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

Members Avatar

USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2012 : 03:00:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> one end is secured to the clutch and the other is connected to the winch;<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I presume the 'winch' is the winch on the trailer on the trailer.

The only issue we have with raising or lowering the mast using the trailer winch is tedium. It seems to take ages for the mast to move the full arc up or down. It doesn't really, but seems to.

Paul

Edited by - on

DonaldM
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2012 : 11:38:17

To release the load on the forestay clevis pin, considered using a calibrated turnbuckle on the backstay.

I use the mast raising strap at the spreaders to raise and lower the mast with the trailer winch and trailer mast raising pole. I have found that I cannot release the forestay clevis pin with any amount of tension on the trailer winch unless the backstay tension is released. After a certain amount of tension on the winch, the mast just bends in the middle.

My solution was to have a rigger install a Ronstan Sealoc Calibrated Turnbuckle and handles on the backstay when I had the rigging replaced (p 953 of the West Marine 2012 catalog, or http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=25002&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=50045&subdeptNum=50088&classNum=50095). These are very easy to use. The handles (sold separately) mean no tools are needed to tighten or loosen the turnbuckle, and the calibration marks allow it to be tightened and loosened to the same settings each time. When lowering the mast, the backstay tension can be released to a pre-determined setting to be able to release the forestay clevis pin. When raising the mast, after the forestay clevis pin is installed, the backstay can easily be re-tensioned to the proper setting.

As a side note, I also had the calibrated turnbuckles installed on the upper shrouds, thinking the tension on those would also need to be released to remove the forestay clevis pin (due to the aft force that the upper shrouds also apply to the top of the mast to make it curve properly). Turns out that turnbuckles on the shrouds are not needed. Loosening the backstay is enough to remove the forestay clevis pin.

Hope this helps.
Don

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

Members Avatar

USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2012 : 14:52:34

Don, I don't see any way that that turnbuckle can be released. Guess I'll have to go look at one.

I did have the idea of putting a Pelican Hook as the connector from the existing turnbuckle to the deck eye.

My concept was to raise the mast, tension the backstay and wire it up. Then to release the backstay just release the pelican hook. But I'm not sure if the pelican hook could be released under the load of the tensioned backstay.

I did plan on putting a stainless steel tube over the 'handle' of the pelican hook to prevent accidental release of the hook. But the tension on the hook was what bothered me the most, so I did not proceed with the mod.

Paul

Edited by - on

DonaldM
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2012 : 23:53:40

Paul,

To be clear about the calibrated turnbuckle, it still needs to be unscrewed to release the backstay tension. It's just much quicker and easier than using a regular turnbuckle, and requires no tools.

The catalog photo and description don't explain it well, but here's how it works. The handle kit consist of two parts. One part (black plastic) is permanently attached to the backstay wire above the turnbuckle swaged stud fitting. Gripping this handle with one hand prevents the stud from turning.

The other handle has a swing-out arm, and acts like a wrench on the nut on the top of the barrel of the turnbuckle. So to adjust the turnbuckle, grab the black plastic handle with one hand, and use the swing-out arm to rotate the nut on the turnbuckle.

The calibrations for setting tension are along a slot in the turnbuckle barrel. The free end of the swaged wire stud is visible through the slot. So to set the turnbuckle to different tensions, merely rotate the nut on the turnbuckle (using the swing-out arm on the handle) until the end of the stud aligns with the appropriate mark on the turnbuckle barrel.

I believe the turnbuckle is intended for racing so that tension in the backstay or shrouds can be adjusted while under way.

Regarding using a pelican hook on the backstay, I think the loads in the backstay could exceed the strength of the hook (especially the hinge pin). There's no working or breaking strength given for the pelican hooks, and the ones I've seen are intended only for lifelines, which don't carry any structural load.

I also had concerns about the strength of quick release shroud levers (p 954 of the West Marine 2012 catalog). The large size is only rated for 1,000 lbs and 1/8 inch wire. My backstay is bigger at 5/32 inch, and even the smallest Sealoc calibrated turnbuckle is rated at 3,590 lbs.

Don

Edited by - on

moserd
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2012 : 15:27:33

Weekend update;
I was able to drop the mast by removing the backstay; no way to get the forestay loose without it. Still needed considerable strain to get the pin out; maybe my shrouds are too tight. All went well until we put the boat in the water (before we pushed off the trailer) and my good friend noticed that we had installed the furler backwards! Ooops, the open part of the furler was pointing forward. Since this would NOT do had to remove the pin once again.

I had NO problem installing the new halyards; the jib was installed using an electrical 'fish' tape and the existing main halyard was simply 'taped' to the existing one and pulled thru.

I do have another question to those wing keel owners though; EVERY TIME I launch the boat no matter what I do the bow light strikes the trailer 'stop' and breaks the red/green bow light. Hmmm. any thoughts on that one!

Edited by - on

hughbamford
Deckhand

Members Avatar

Australia
17 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2012 : 21:15:38

Hi Don,

First thing I noticed when I received my yacht was the vulnerability of the bow light, I'm intending on installing a boom bail with two connectors either side to attached to the railing, this should be thin enough to still see the light but give it some protection.

Cheers,

Hugh Bamford

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2272 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2012 : 21:43:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by moserd
 Weekend update;
I was able to drop the mast by removing the backstay; no way to get the forestay loose without it. Still needed considerable strain to get the pin out; maybe my shrouds are too tight...

I do have another question to those wing keel owners though; EVERY TIME I launch the boat no matter what I do the bow light strikes the trailer 'stop' and breaks the red/green bow light. Hmmm. any thoughts on that one!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Although it's always possible that your shrouds are too tight, needing to remove the backstay (preferably just one side of the split) to get the forestay loose is normal. Steel does not stretch much, so it's going to be very tough to remove the forestay unless you loosen the backstay and both the uppers and lowers. IIRC, this is clearly explained in the Catalina manual, which can be found online here.

I do not have a trailer, but my boat was originally purchased with one according to Catalina's sales records. I have a piece of electrical tape covering the holes where the bow light used to be. The boat has whale eyes now (installed by a previous owner). Perhaps you just explained why they did this.

Edited by - on

moserd
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2012 : 10:57:17

Do you have any pictures of the whale eyes; I am very interested in changing the position of the bow light. Anyone else had 'issues' with the location of the bow light?

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.