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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/15/2003 : 12:24:43

Did anyone see Race 3 last night? Who thinks that Oracle were robbed of at least one penalty?? It sure was a brilliant race.
Derek

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2003 : 16:34:33

I didn't see it, but I read about it at CBS Sportsline. It sure doesn't look good for Oracle.

Alinghi edges Oracle in tight race for 3-0 challenger final lead
Jan. 15, 2003
SportsLine.com wire reports

AUCKLAND, New Zealand -- After two lopsided victories by the Swiss yacht Alinghi over Oracle in the America's Cup challenger final, Wednesday's 61-second victory margin might look like a third.

It was anything but.

<img src="http://images.sportsline.com/u/photos/general/img6126844.jpg" border=0>

San Francisco's Oracle was ahead of its Swiss rival by about 100 meters just seconds from the finish when it was forced to "discharge" a penalty it had incurred earlier in the race for bumping Alinghi's stern.

They made the penalty turn around the pin-end mark of the finish line and watched helplessly while Alinghi crossed the line just one second ahead of them.

Officials first listed the victory margin as one second, then changed it to 1:03 when it added time from a second penalty turn that Oracle had to make for hitting the finish-line buoy.

An hour after the race ended, officials said they had again changed the race time to 1:01. They gave no reason for the change.

If the officials were confused, then so were Oracle's crew, who couldn't figure out why they were penalized for bumping Alinghi when they felt Alinghi had restricted their movement during the fourth leg of the race. After the finish, some Oracle crew members berated officials on the committee boat.

"Was that close enough for you? That was a good race," said Alinghi skipper Russell Coutts.

With matches scheduled Thursday and Friday in the nine-race final, Alinghi could clinch the series by the weekend and earn the right to face Cup holders New Zealand in the Cup final beginning Feb. 15.

In a race delayed by 2½ hours due to light winds, Alinghi won the start. But Oracle took advantage of a left-hand wind shift to take the lead briefly for the first time in the final.

Alinghi retook the lead before Oracle again edged ahead during a tacking duel. But the Swiss boat had the lead after the first mark.

Oracle raced much better Wednesday, keeping the yachts the closest they had been in the final. Oracle's Peter Holmberg, who usually has the wheel for the start, kept driving the boat for the entire race as Dickson stood aside to yell encouragement and commands.

The Swiss boat extended its lead to 13 seconds after the second mark, but it had nothing to do with boatspeed on the second leeward leg. Alinghi used its leading position to force Oracle into an extra gybe before the mark.

On the third leg, the two yachts separated by more than 500 meters, and Oracle made up just one second on Alinghi's lead as the Swiss boat led by 12 seconds at the halfway point in the race.

On the pivotal fourth leg, the two dueled down the course and nearly touched twice before Oracle finally hit Alinghi's stern, incurring a penalty.

During that leg, Oracle flew protest flags, saying that Alinghi, with a slight lead, was not sailing its proper course. At the end of the leg, Oracle led by eight seconds, the first time it led a leg in the final.

Oracle lost the openers by 1:24 and 40 seconds.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2003 : 17:07:05

I agree Derek,

I watched the race last night. It was the best one yet.

Maybe the judges are letting them "slug it out" a bit and are being less conservative in their decisions.

I guess, unfortunatelly for Oracle, that hitting one an other must be penalized.

I was happy with Oracle's ability to sail better on the upwind legs. She does seem faster downwind.

I think they should have done their penalty turn at the upwind mark.
Like leg 4 they might have been able to gybe their way past Alinghy downwind.

Did you see Dawn Reiley's comentary on the differences between Oracle and Alinghy? It seems that Oracle is very fast but hard to handle. Her mast is farther aft which puts more load on the rudder. She's alittle "squirly". Kinda like fish-tailing a car in the snow.

Maybe Alingy has been doing better because she has better directional stability, allowing the helmsman to steer less to keep her on track. Every move of the rudder will rob speed.

Alinghy's crew is killer too. They don't often make a mistake.

I hope Oracle wins tonight.

P

Edited by - on

allencl
Navigator

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USA
143 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2003 : 22:41:36

That was an exciting race. Right at this moment I'm watching Oracle and Alinghi in race four go through incredible lead changes as they catch, then lose, the gentle breezes of the day.

U.S. just rounded mark 2 AHEAD of the Swiss boat by 56 seconds! Go Oracle!

P.S.- I'm afraid that I think Alinghi is more likely to beat New Zealand in the Americas Cup than is Oracle, but of course I'm rooting for Oracle anyway.

-Chris on "SPIRIT" C25 SR WK #5644

Edited by - allencl on 01/15/2003 22:42:37

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2003 : 00:03:07

I'm rooting for Oracle right now. But if they get into the real final I'll have mixed emotions - I have relatives in New Zealand!
Derek

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2003 : 07:25:22

Oracle won race 4, but I guess y'awl know that!

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2003 : 08:33:26

Last nights race looked great..I kept falling asleep and missed a bunch of it. I'll tape a re-run today.

It seems Oracle has gained some speed and control.

I wonder what they have done to modify the boat.

No matter who wins the whole thing, they are all pretty much crewed by New Zealanders anyway.

I don't mean that in a bad way, but it's true.

Is the Summer long enough in Switzerland to hold the event. Maybe they could switch to ice boats<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

We know that DC hasn't been able to do much the past 2 events. The NY Yacht club has so much money, yet their past 2 campaignes have been ,in my opinion, totally halfassed. Or is that, half-as-fast. DC does sell alot of shirts though.<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

Where is Paul,(It's not my fault!), Cayard this time?

I want Larry Ellison's superyacht. From a distance it has the profile of a battleship. Big ninja!

Go Oracle,

P

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2003 : 08:41:32

What network are you watching it on?

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2003 : 09:59:51

Duane - it's called OLN. I get it on cable but it is also on satellite. Coverage starts at 8 p.m. CDST each day of a race.
Derek

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allencl
Navigator

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USA
143 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2003 : 11:20:46

And here's a couple of links covering the races:

http://www.louisvuittoncup.yahoo.com
http://www.cupviews.com

-Chris on "SPIRIT" C25 SR WK #5644

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2003 : 13:23:55

Or to see what the locals think:-
http://nzherald.co.nz
Derek

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2003 : 19:09:10

So who does Dennis conner sue now?

Frank

Frank

Edited by - on

pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2003 : 19:40:10

Maybe Hobie Alder?<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

About my New Zealander crew comment. I think the tactician on Oracle is Italian. Mamma Mia, thatsa wonna fasta boata.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

By the way, I'm 1/2 Italian <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>. No nationalistic slurrs intended. Justa havin fun.

Go Oracle.

P

Edited by - pwhallon on 01/16/2003 19:56:07

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Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2003 : 23:57:30

Race 5 now over. Alinghi 4 Oracle 1. The conditions almost the same as race 4, makes you wonder if Oracle just got lucky in race 4.

They lead for the first 3legs, lose it on the 4th,then get smoked on the last 2.It will take a miracle now.

Does anyone think Alinghi can beat New Zealand?

Bryan Beamer
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - Bryan Beamer on 01/17/2003 01:26:54

Edited by - on

mqp
1st Mate

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USA
46 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 15:15:44

I think Alinghi has a good chance against Team NZ. After all, the current Alinghi team is the same team that defended the cup in 2000.

--Minh

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 15:45:01

Indeed, Coutts against Dean Barker should be very interesting...in 2000 Barker was the helmsman whom Coutts practiced against while the challengers were duking it out. Apparently Barker gave Coutts all he could handle (which is one reason Barker got the helm in the last race in the last Cup) - the NZ repair crew were kept busy many days after the two of them had played bumper boats.
On the last race day last time, I was in the America's Cup Village with 70,000 screaming Kiwis - a memory I'll always cherish!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Virtually every store in NZ, during the Cup, has a large screen TV set up with chairs for viewing - they are sailing crazy there!<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 16:41:13

I spent the winter of 89 at a Ski Instructor at Jackson Hole as part of my mid life crisis management. We had some Kiwis in the ski school. I also know some kiwi raft guides.

They are all just plain crazy, (in a good way) not just the sailors.

If i ever win the lottery, I'll spend lots of time down under.

Frank

Frank

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pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 20:26:42

WOW!

New Zealand sounds like a great place to hang out.<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

I have a friend in Queensland Australia and he too is crazy in a good way.<img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle>

I sure wish the family and I were there right now.

P

Edited by - on

John G-
Admiral

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793 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 21:01:29

Aren’t these boats a little big for Lake Geneva?
 

[url="http://www.peregrinefund.org/"]<img src="http://www.peregrinefund.org/images/intro_mid_image.GIF" border=0>[/url]
 John G- "PEREGRINE" C25-#4762 FK

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2003 : 12:07:53

That would be really funny Alingi won and chose the lake as their venue. The 'old boys' who started it all will be turning 100 RPM in their graves. (If they aren't already given the fragility of these so-called 'boats').

Frankly, I enjoyed the old 12 meters a lot more. Something about these 'disposable' high-tech wonders, hired-gun crews, etc. completely turns me off.

I think it's kind of a statement about our times... the sell-out of a classic sporting event to appeal to mass marketing and corporate sponsors.

I'm just waiting for the scantily clad cheerleaders to show up... hmm.. on second thought.. that's not a bad idea...

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

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pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2003 : 12:38:46

I agree ClamBeach,

The old 12's were a lot tougher boats.

Remember in 1983, the tacking dual between DC and Australia in the last race. The wind was howling with whitecaps everywhere. They must have tacked 40 times.

Those conditions and that many tacks would break one of these new boats in half.

Maybe Brittany Spears will do a comercial for the next one.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

P

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2003 : 22:23:29

Yes.. those were the most exciting races I'd ever seen... and will probably ever see.

I remember Dennis Connor leading the Aussies through the spectator fleet and finally shutting them off at the start... What fantastic boat handling.

Beyond my comprehension why they changed it... to me the new boats are boring.. except for the suspense of seeing who's going to sink.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2003 : 06:16:30

I was racing on LI sound one day a few years a go a beautiful, grand old lady sailed by. Graceful and awesome. Just watching her took my breath away. Those were the days when the Americas Cup meant something (IMHO).

By the way the LVCup is over and Alingi will challange, wone the last race by like 2:30.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2003 : 11:00:36

If it wasn't for bad umpire calls, the series would be 3 - 3 and still going...
Derek

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pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2003 : 11:15:51

Hi Derek,

I agree.

Do you think the umpires were too easy on Alinghy?

I disagree with that foul last night. There was plenty of room between the boats.

Alinghy wiggled her stern alittle and baited the umpires into the foul call. She did not have to tack. Couts is a crafty little devil.

Larry Ellison was pretty cool about it.

About these new boats: They are a lot more expensive than the 12's as well. Maybe more teams would compete if the costs were less.

Question: Why were the reaching legs dropped?

P

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2003 : 13:24:41

Paul, I believe that the reaching legs were dropped for two reasons.
They required additional sails onboard specifically for that leg, and the lead boat was never ever passed on a reach...(very much like lake racing<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>)
Derek

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