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What a navy commander oughta know

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2012 : 19:55:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell...How can one guy be responsible for every action of every person on board a ship? As in the rest of the world? He can't. People make mistakes, equipment fails. The only thing a Captain, or any other supervisor, can do is assure adequate training, resources and best possible conditions for his crew...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Based on that logic, the CEO of Enron should be enjoying his billions in his multitude of homes around the world this very day (if he were alive).

The commanding officer of a vessel, Navy or otherwise, is responsible for everything that has to do with the safe command and operation of the vessel. The worst possible outcome under his/her command--worse than a grounding and tipping over next to an Italian island--is a collision at sea. Something went very wrong with the operation of that destroyer--maybe also with the operation of the tanker... but a "bulk cargo" tanker can't change course, slow down, or stop in I'm guessing 20 times the distance of a destroyer.

Yes, maybe we'll learn more after the investigation--maybe not. I haven't heard any more about the USCG's investigation of the collision of one of its vessels with a ferry from Point Judith to Block Island, where the early evidence pointed at the USCG vessel. Funny how those "investigations" get forgotten.......

To reiterate the warning to our participants here, which is loosely (or not much) connected to the incident: A large ship approaching you, due to its size, gives an optical illusion of its speed and rate of closure. Somebody here mentioned ships accelerating from standing starts--I would suggest that this is exactly what that illusion is. The ship you see that "isn't moving", really is--perhaps at 20-25 knots. Its size fools your eyes, and it will be on you faster than you think. As it gets closer, it appears to be accelerating at a rate that defies your expectations--as if it went from zero to 20 knots in a few minutes. Believe me--it didn't! When you see the bow of a ship, turn away from it until you know in much more detail what's going on.

The principle of zero change in bearing over time is an important one--it indicates a collision course. But a ship at a considerable distance might not give you a clear bearing indication, especially if you're adjusting your course based on wind conditions or whatever. Keep in mind the optical illusion of large ships, and use it to stay out of their way.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/16/2012 20:05:08

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2012 : 08:19:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by StinkpotterYes, maybe we'll learn more after the investigation--maybe not. I haven't heard any more about the USCG's investigation of the collision of one of its vessels with a ferry from Point Judith to Block Island, where the early evidence pointed at the USCG vessel. Funny how those "investigations" get forgotten.......<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah right? I just don't understand why the De-battleship-stroyer turned to port... EVERYONE should know, ships pass wine to wine. Port to Port. Period. If my taxpayer funded vessel had applied this rule, my tax dollars would not be going to repair the damn thing...

sten

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At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2012 : 15:29:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Diver
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 A battleship (none of which are in service, and haven't been for decades)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I served as a UH-1H Huey Crewchief during the Gulf War. Although I never saw her, we knew the Mighty Mo was offshore, firing Tommies and her big 16" guns. It was a real honor serving along side her.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Didn't know we had any Hueys in the GW. As a VN era Huey driver..what were you doing?

Edited by - At Ease on 08/17/2012 15:29:59

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2012 : 15:32:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andy
 Battle ship or destroyer, as an ex navel officer, I can tell you that that captain's career is over, even if they had the right of way. Two things you better not do if yer the boss... Run the boat aground and 2, have a collision with anything. There are no excuses and no second chances.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Are you an ex navel officer or an ex naval officer?

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2012 : 16:18:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell...How can one guy be responsible for every action of every person on board a ship? As in the rest of the world? He can't. People make mistakes, equipment fails. The only thing a Captain, or any other supervisor, can do is assure adequate training, resources and best possible conditions for his crew...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Based on that logic, the CEO of Enron should be enjoying his billions in his multitude of homes around the world this very day (if he were alive).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The difference, Dave, is that the Enron guy was complicit in the crime. A Captain that has done everything possible to assure accurate operation of the ship being held responsible for a human error and/or system failure is ludicrous. It's like a school principal being held resonsible for a school bus accident .

I just think it's a matter of due diligence. If the Commander has done his due diligence, a reasonableness test should apply.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2012 : 16:18:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by At Ease
 Didn't know we had any Hueys in the GW. As a VN era Huey driver..what were you doing?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ass & Trash. Hauling Colonels and Generals back and forth to meetings. Night missions. Backup aircraft to the Blackhawks. Hauling MRE's and cases of water to troopies living in ditches.

And a few other things I still can't talk about. Under a 40 year non-disclosure from security clearance.

We had 30 UH-1H models....15 in A co and 15 in B co. I had 72-21588.....I'll never forget my tail number. She was my baby for 4 years.

Here's a picture I snapped of myself one day flying along. You can see the reflection of the desert in my visor:

This was taken on the ground outside Kuwait City: (I'm leaning on the nose)

Edited by - on

Voyager
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USA
5429 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2012 : 20:38:16

Geez John and Gary - thanks for throwing me under the bus!!!!!!
Funny - I did not assert that the commander of the destroyer did anything wrong, what I said is that the early news stories reported that the Naval Vessel turned to port just prior to the collision and thus ran in front of the oil tanker. Presumably the tanker was unable to stop quickly enough to avoid a collision. While the post mortem is yet to be completed, the initial crash evidence seems indicate that the damage to the destroyer was consistent with such a turn to port.
Only two maritime lawyers, a maritime law judge and a bunch of expert witnesses will be able make ruling as to what exactly transpired and who may have done what when. May not even be a case of two ships on reciprocal courses colliding, instead there could have been some angle between the vessels other than 180 degrees. That could have made matters much less cut and dried.

Edited by - Voyager on 08/17/2012 20:44:27

GaryB
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USA
4316 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2012 : 18:46:26

I didn't realize I was throwing you under the bus. I was just trying to point out that their were other possible causes to this accident.

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2012 : 19:32:27

Sorry, Bruce. I certainly din't mean to offend. I just wanted to point out that, as is sometimes the case here, conclusions are reached before data is gathered.

I also wanted to rant a bit about the way our military sometimes expects commanders to be omnipotent when they put their pants on one leg at a time just like the rest of us. Some poor schmuck commander is going to take the rap for an error or other circumstance that may have occurred on his boat that he likely had no control over.

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