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Anyone use Samson Ultra-Lite?

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NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/16/2012 : 05:22:34

I'm thinking about going with this in 3/8" for my sheets (jib and main). I'll be racing with it using gloves. My main reason for using it is not only because it is light weight, but does not absorb water. My current sheets absorb tons of water when they get wet and add alot of weight. Do you guys think the Ultra-lite would turn ok in the winches, or should I go with something softer, perhaps trying a 12 strand?

http://www.samsonrope.com/index.cfm?ind=1&app=3&rope=88&inst=1

1989 C-25 TR/WK #5894
Miss Behavin'
Sittin' in LCYC on Canyon Lake, Texas

Edited by - NautiC25 on 10/16/2012 05:25:18

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2012 : 06:38:25

I haven't used Samson Ultra Lite, but, IMO, the weight of wet jibsheets is insignificant, except in very light air. In that case, I would prefer to use smaller sheets. In light air, you don't need to worry much about stretch, or the strength of the line, so your light air jibsheets can be inexpensive line. When the wind is strong enough to lift the weight of the sailcloth, it can generally also lift the slight additional weight of wet jibsheets. When the wind isn't strong enough to lift the sailcloth, then the way to keep the sails driving is to put all crew weight as far on the leeward rail as possible, inducing the boat to heel. When the boat heels, the sails hang smoothly in the aerodynamic shape that generates drive. If you don't heel the boat, the sails will hang limply, like a bedsheet on a clothesline, and they won't generate drive. Gravity makes them hang in the areodynamic shape that is formed in them by the sailmaker.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

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957 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2012 : 07:13:57

Correct, but as I mentioned, my main concern is to be able to keep the sheets dry. The mainsheet in particular, will sit on the cockpit floor and collect water. I'd like it to be as dry as possible. Now, I may be going a little overboard because my current sheets are extremely obsorbant, possibly because of age. They literally weigh 3x's as much after being submerged.

Edited by - NautiC25 on 10/16/2012 07:16:24

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 10/16/2012 : 09:11:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NautiC25
 Correct, but as I mentioned, my main concern is to be able to keep the sheets dry. The mainsheet in particular, will sit on the cockpit floor and collect water. I'd like it to be as dry as possible. Now, I may be going a little overboard because my current sheets are extremely obsorbant, possibly because of age. They literally weigh 3x's as much after being submerged.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I should have read your OP more carefully, because you did refer to both jib and main sheets.

I had forgotten about it, but did use an extra light weight and non-absorbant line for my main sheet, for the same reasons you have suggested. I don't remember the brand of line. A light weight main sheet is more helpful than the jibsheet, especially in light air, because of the cumulative weight of the multiple-part tackle. I didn't change the main sheet for heavier winds. The 3/8" light weight line that I used for my main sheet was strong enough to stand up to the heaviest loads. I liked the light weight main sheet very much.

I don't see any reason why a similar line shouldn't work equally well for jib sheets. I didn't use it, because it was expensive, and I thought I could get by as well using cheaper light lines in light air. On the website you provided, the manufacturer recommends that the line be used for "Competition Grade Running Rigging". We use a similar Dynema-based line on a 40' racer for its spinnaker sheets, and I don't see any difference in the way it works in the winches, but our spinnaker sheets consist of very small dimension dyneema lines at the end which is attached to the sail, and the Dynema is spliced to a heavier line, where the line is wrapped around the winches. I believe the heavier line might be Dynema cored. That makes it very light at the sail, but easier on the hands at the winches. I don't know whether your winches are self-tailers, but I have learned to not trust self-sailers in any case.

On a sailboat, extra weight is not necessarily bad. At one time, dinghy racers were wearing jackets that would hold a lot of water, because it added weight when they hiked out, and helped them keep the boat on it's feet. Weight aloft is almost always a bad thing, but weight down low isn't necessarily. In light air, I like to bring along extra crew, so I can orient the boat to preserve the sail's shape, and to reduce wetted surface and drag.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2012 : 18:55:17

Maffioli Swiftcord is great for the mainsheet, but it is expensive. Salsa is a less expensive alternative and is available in 3/8", or 10mm. In 5/16", or 8-9mm, I really like BZZZ line. It's a single braid, is light weight, and flies through blocks. It's our standard jib sheet on the C-22 for racing, but worked well for me on the C-25 in light air (under 10) conditions.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2012 : 03:27:43

For what it's worth, I've not used any of the nicer quality lines on mine, but I have downsized all my sheets/control lines on my boat (except for the halyards, and they may be next)...

I've used sta-set, or sta-set x because I'm pretty cheap. My jib sheets are 5/16 (down from 3/8), and my mainsheet is also 5/16, as it my backstay adjustment. All the boom control lines are 1/4" except my vang, which is still 5/16. Down-haul for the spin is also 5/16. My halyards are 5/16 for spin, and 3/8 for main/jib/jib with 5/16 for topping lift... I think I'll go all 5/16 for that.

I mention all this ONLY because I know that I've not been concerned with the strength of any of these, and they've taken some weight off sail control when it gets REAL light. This allows the sails to lift nicely in the lightest of winds (we had lots of yawner races this summer).

So what I am saying is if you are in mostly light air, you may be able to go to these lighter lines, and maybe even smaller diameter as well.

SHNOOL - whose never used sail gloves and only have a few rope burns to prove it (that mainsheet is a bear when you dump in single handing in 20 mph winds).

Edited by - shnool on 10/19/2012 03:29:08

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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1144 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2012 : 06:21:24

If you really want to get light look at the ways of splicing AmSteel to double braid like XLS or Sta-Set X. You can run 3/16" AmSteel for the forward part of the jib sheets, then have 5/16" or 3/8" double braid where it goes through the winches. The smaller slick line is also less likely to hang up your standing rigging when tacking.

I'm just starting to play with these concepts, first by learning how to do the splices. My first experiment was on my outhaul, which is AmSteel through the boom. The next experiment will be in my reefing lines, with the theory that AmSteel will slide more nicely through sail cringles. If those experiments work well then I'll probably build some AmSteel->XLS halyards.

AmSteel has great low-stretch properties and is fairly inexpensive. It just doesn't work well on winches and isn't nice to handle in hand. That is where splicing becomes helpful.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2012 : 12:44:24

Ultra-light will be good for halyards.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

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957 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2012 : 12:54:27

I think I'm just going to use the Ultra-lite for the mainsheet. Since it sits on the floor and regularly gets wet, I want something that doesn't absord water. If I purchase a spinnaker, then I'll also use it for that. After some thought, I don't think its benefits and cost warrant using it elsewhere.

I've gotten good at splicing Amsteel and love the grey look on the boat. I'm already using it for lifelines and shortening my vang and mainsheet. So, I'll probably go with a really small diameter Amsteel and splice it into some double braid to make a nice halyard.

Edited by - on

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2012 : 13:18:24

re: splicing amsteel.....

With a 150% genoa, what would the actual weight savings add up to for the sheets? I use a single length for both sheets, cow hitch in middle of the length at the clew. When sheeted in on a close haul, there are only a couple of feet of sheet still in front of the coaming winch......I do like the idea though of learning to splice and play with running rigging.

Did anyone catch the cruising world article on a cruiser replacing all standing rigging with hi-tech line? Interestingly, the difference in expansion of the AL mast and the stays required adjustment.....

Edited by - Ape-X on 10/19/2012 18:14:10

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2012 : 13:45:22

If you want an incredible, low stretch line for your halyards, check out Samson Ultra-Tech Double Braid line, currently on sale at Defender. In 5/16", it is $1.73/ft., in 3/8" $2.17.
http://www.defender.com/category.jsp?path=-1|10391|311417|314170&id=749711

Avg tensile strength of the 5/16" line is 7,800 lbs, 3/8" id 10,000 lbs. I tried the 3/16" version for halyards on our C-22, same thickness as the old wire portion of the halyards (and stronger) so I didn't have to change out the masthead sheaves. It worked well, but 3/16" was too hard on my hands. I don't think I would use it for jib sheets (I still favor the BZZZ single braid line) but I suspect the 5/16" would work well for spinnaker sheets.

Edited by - dmpilc on 10/20/2012 13:46:36

NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2012 : 04:27:49

I'm using the XLS Extra T for halyards in 5/16". It's pretty lightweight and I like it so far. Next time, I may try something like the Ultra and splice it in to something comfortable.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2012 : 08:34:32

XLS Extra is really nice stuff with very little stretch and a nice hand. We used it for the halyards on our C-25, and I'll probably end up using it again on the new boat. I'm not sure that Ultra-Tech buys you a whole lot, and it is quite a bit more expensive.

To replace wire halyards without changing the sheaves I'd probably splice AmSteel Blue (well under $1/foot in the size necessary) to cheaper and larger diameter double braid like XLS. The Amsteel length would be long enough to go from the top of the mast down to your clutches. The double braid would be the tail that gets clamped by the clutch and wound around the winch. This is exactly what I plan on doing on my new boat. The working part of the halyard will be 3/16" Amsteel Blue, and that will be spliced to 5/16" XLS.

At the clutch end I'll use the "core to core bulk splice" shown here:
http://www.apsltd.com/c-1539-splicingservices-halyardssheetsguys.aspx

At the sail end of the halyard I'll have a brummel splice long enough to make a luggage tag knot around a shackle.

The splices are pretty easy to learn, fun to do, and don't require expensive tools. This is a good winter project.

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