Association Forum - Join a Yacht Club-- Yes? No?

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Join a Yacht Club-- Yes? No?

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

CateP
Navigator

Member Avatar

USA
108 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/05/2012 : 08:02:49

Hi Everybody-- I brought my Catalina-25 from NJ to beautiful Lake Winnipesaukee in New Hampshire. I kept my boat at a yacht club this summer and got a great deal on a mooring as a non-member. Next summer I either have join the club or find another place to keep my boat. The kicker is that it costs $15,000 to join this yacht club. (You buy a share and can sell it later if you leave the club.) I would be saving about $1,000 a year in mooring and winter storage costs if I joined the club versus using other marinas nearby. The other benefits are that they have really nice club house, a private beach, taxi service to your boat and a launch you can use off-hours.

Opinions?
Other things to think about?
Does the $15k initiation fee seem ridiculously high? (I've never joined any club for that amount of money)

Thanks in advance for replies.

"Mysterious" 1983 C25 SR/SK #3655
Lake Winnipesaukee, NH

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2012 : 08:46:41

$15k initiation fee. Annual dues? Mooring fees in addition to dues?
What's the monthly minimum you have to spend at the clubhouse? How many hours/month are expected in service?

On the up side, do they organize sailing events you otherwise wouldn't take part in?

When I travel to my boat, I go out to go sailing. If you go out to socialize with the neighbors, the Yacht Club might be the right choice.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2012 : 08:48:54

I balked at the $5,000 equity buy in before joining our club, but so far its been worth it (one year so far). After about 5 years my equity buy-in will pay for itself over the costs of being in a marina.

If you compare cost of being in a club vs. being in a marina, how long does it take for the equity to balance out? Will you be there that long? Will you make use of the club's services? For me the advantages of storage, launch, meals, bar, etc. outweighed the cost of the equity. Plus this club allows you to pay the equity off as an interest-free loan over the first 3 years of membership.

Edited by - on

CateP
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
108 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2012 : 08:53:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 $15k initiation fee. Annual dues? Mooring fees in addition to dues?
What's the monthly minimum you have to spend at the clubhouse? How many hours/month are expected in service?

On the up side, do they organize sailing events you otherwise wouldn't take part in?

When I travel to my boat, I go out to go sailing. If you go out to socialize with the neighbors, the Yacht Club might be the right choice.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes there are annual dues and mooring fees, but that's it. No other fees or expectations around service. Once I paid the initiation fee, I would be spending $1,000 less on a mooring and winter storage compared to other marinas in the area. The social aspect of the club is nice as there are several other sailors to learn from and talk to, but not a requirement on my part. Being able to use the club house and hang out is a little like having waterfront property (without the taxes). They do not organize sailing events, but there is a local group that races on Sundays and we end up back at the yacht club to discuss the day.

Edited by - on

CateP
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
108 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2012 : 09:04:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 I balked at the $5,000 equity buy in before joining our club, but so far its been worth it (one year so far). After about 5 years my equity buy-in will pay for itself over the costs of being in a marina.

If you compare cost of being in a club vs. being in a marina, how long does it take for the equity to balance out? Will you be there that long? Will you make use of the club's services? For me the advantages of storage, launch, meals, bar, etc. outweighed the cost of the equity. Plus this club allows you to pay the equity off as an interest-free loan over the first 3 years of membership.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Very interesting to hear about what other clubs cost. I wouldn't hesitate if the share cost was $5k. It would be 16 years before this club membership paid for itself. (saving $1000 a year versus a marina)
This club DID offer a 3- year pay back plan, but they want a $500 non-refundable fee for going that route.

What do you think about the ability to sell the share at a later date? (By-laws say a member can only sell for the amount paid, no profit) Club has first refusal to buy back a share.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2012 : 11:15:07

$15k initiation fee isn't all that unusual for a Country Club. (Yacht Club) Most of the ones around me are in the $30-45k range.....word has it the old, prestigious club in Fort Worth that hosts a big time PGA tour stop every Spring after the Byron....is $80k to get in.

I was quoted $1k to join the Fort Worth Boat Club on Eagle Mountain. Additionally, monthly dues and slip fees must be paid. Monthly cost ends up being about $150 more a month than I'm paying now.

I like the Yacht Club atmosphere/life, at least what I've seen out at my lake. The property is beautiful, on a point, with a nice clubhouse, pool, restaurant, dry storage, crane, wonderful dockage and slips, beautiful lawn and beach, shower/locker room facilities, parking, 24hour security staff....plus races every Wednesday evening, regattas throughout the year.....one of them is even a national event on some tour. They have parties, luncheons, lessons, and a very active social calendar.

I guess it comes down to, what do you get for your money and is it worth it to you? Do you like the club and more importantly, do you like the members? Why are you joining?

I'm in a motorcycle club....and to some hang arounds, and to every prospect....I tell them to ask themselves one (not so simple) question:

Besides your presence, what do you bring to the club?

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2012 : 11:35:36

Geebus! I paid a whopping $600 to get into mine. lol

Now I've got to ask this. Do your clubs have reciprocation with mine, so I can stay for free? I'll even swap you burgees.

Edited by - NautiC25 on 11/05/2012 11:37:04

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2272 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2012 : 12:15:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by CateP
 [quote]Originally posted by Prospector
 ...What do you think about the ability to sell the share at a later date? (By-laws say a member can only sell for the amount paid, no profit) Club has first refusal to buy back a share.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Whenever I hear about this "selling your equity" stuff, I always wonder what has actually been done in the past. Who has actually sold their membership to third party? For how much? (For a loss?) Who has sold it back to the club? For how much? (For a loss?)

In theory, the total net cost is (initial money in) - (money saved in mooring and other services) - (money recaptured when you leave) + (corrections for time value of capital tied up). You need to know what that third term is.

Could you actually buy a "used" membership from a member that is quitting (or has deceased)? Maybe you can get a bargain on one! Or does the club somehow force people to give up their equity for $0? I'm always skeptical about these things.

Private clubs can often lack transparency about these things, and offer special treatment for certain favored members (and screw the others). So be careful. Your best source of information on this could be a former member, if you can find one.

FWIW, my club charged me a $500 initiation fee that I will not get back. Savings in winter storage paid this back in one year. I have no equity, but you do raise an interesting question about who owns the equity in my club if it were to dissolve. I have a feeling there's an inside deal somewhere involving the officers of my club, but for $150 a year dues I'm not going to sweat it. I get more than my money's worth from the dues.

Edited by - TakeFive on 11/06/2012 07:28:57

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2012 : 12:45:56

Wow, our sailing club is $75 a year... $50 if you don't want to race. On top of that it's a great bunch of folks...
However - we don't have a clubhouse... we use camp facilities (thanks Tom - dockmaster) for the attached campground... and generally have little/no overhead. It's mostly done through volunteerism, and a bunch of guys/gals who just want to sail.

Yachtclub? no yachtclub for us.

I'm in IT and don't know how to be social anyway. Honestly, I don't think we could have our slip fees any cheaper either. But then again we're a pretty small lake.

To put it in perspective... $15k would be 3 times what I paid for my boat, or 15 years of slip fees!

Edited by - shnool on 11/05/2012 12:47:50

CateP
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
108 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2012 : 13:40:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by shnool
 Wow, our sailing club is $75 a year... $50 if you don't want to race. On top of that it's a great bunch of folks...
However - we don't have a clubhouse... we use camp facilities (thanks Tom - dockmaster) for the attached campground... and generally have little/no overhead. It's mostly done through volunteerism, and a bunch of guys/gals who just want to sail.

Yachtclub? no yachtclub for us.

I'm in IT and don't know how to be social anyway. Honestly, I don't think we could have our slip fees any cheaper either. But then again we're a pretty small lake.

To put it in perspective... $15k would be 3 times what I paid for my boat, or 15 years of slip fees!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Believe me if there was a sailing club that had inexpensive fees and moorings I would be there, but the marina choices for sailboats where I am located are limited. I was just told of a mooring at a local marina for $2400 for the season. The yacht club charges $925. I am not interested in joining the club for prestige, just looking for the most cost effective option. (including the time and gas it takes to get to the boat)

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3462 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2012 : 14:59:06

Without actually being in your position and looking things over, etc, still, I would say go for it if you believe you will be into sailing for the long term.

The years pass by and you are saving over $1000 a year plus you get to sell your share when you leave. This is similar to joining a tennis/pool club in the neighborhood. Our experience has been that the share price can go up after many years but the whole thing with a pool club is paying the annual dues and then making good use of it. In your case, it is not even the case of sailing frequently because your alternative is paying over $1000 more per year. The side benefit if you are somewhat or a lot social is participating in any of the activities they have annually. Given a group of sailors versus those that just go to a pool, I would think that the social aspects are a benefit for you even if you participate infrequently.
Only downside i see is any maintenance expenses. if the marina needs a facelift, then the members will be paying for it in the annual dues or a maintenance fee that is tacked on. So, maybe you should ask about that - The what ifs regarding any planned or unscheduled maintenance to the facilities - What has the past been like as far as dues increase, etc ?

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/05/2012 15:00:15

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2012 : 16:39:34

One night I got off of the boat and was heading for a beer in the strip mall near my current Marina. In the alley behind it was a bunch of Christmas lights. WTF? So I walked up the alley and discovered a bar. It said Commodore International Yacht Club on the door, so I walked in. I am probably the only member with a boat, but the dues are $25 annually and gets you reciprocal privileges at the big boy clubs. Money goes to a good cause. Google commodore international yacht club. If anyone wants to become a member, I'll help you out...

Sten

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2012 : 18:27:32

Generally an "initiation fee" is non-refundable--simply a fee. Most (or all) clubs that require a "bond" or "equity" investment, "buy" those "investments" back when you leave the club, and then re-sell them--you won't find their memberships for sale privately on Craig's List.

All of that said, whatever somebody else's environment offers in the way of memberships and costs is of no consequence to you--you have certain options on your lake, and that's that. Do you like the people, the environment, the programs, the mooring spots, the storage arrangement, etc.? If so, I'd say spring for it! It could be a great social anchor for you!

The $15K actually is only costing you the cumulative interest on $15K--if you can get $20K for it in 15 years, that beats today's CD rates (which hopefully won't last that long). And at the same time, you're saving $1K per year--that's a 6.67% return. The financial case seems pretty easy--how do you feel about shaking loose $15K?

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/05/2012 18:40:11

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2012 : 19:11:40

Think about where you were 15 years ago. Did you see yourself with a sailboat at that time? Do you see yourself with a sailboat 15 years from now? Will the club still exist in 15 years (especially in this economy)? What happens if it folds? Who are you going to sell your equity to if it does fold?

I guess I'm cheap. I can't see paying that much to join a club if I owned a $5K - $7K boat. Too many "what ifs".

Andiamo is on a brand new floating dock with 19' or 20' tall pilings to ride on. I pay $256/month for a 12' X 40' dock with electricity and water. I've been paying significantly less for a smaller dock up until this year. I wanted the newer docks.

The marina has beautiful landscaping, there are 3 clubhouses each with big screen TV's and laundromats, 2 swimming pools, and a couple of lighted tennis courts. There's a boat yard 200 yards from my slip with a 30 ton Travelift and full repair facilities. The people around the marina are very friendly and people are always ready to help each other out.

Best of all, there's a brand new Super West Marine less than a mile away!

The point is, I get most of the things others have mentioned without having to join a club.

In 5 years I will have paid the same amount as you might pay but if I get tired of sailing I can sell the boat for a profit and be done with it. I don't have to worry about selling my equity. If I get tired of this marina or the people I'm not tied down to it. I can go whenever I'm ready.

Obviously it's not just about the money. You do get tangible and intangible benefits from your investment that help to justify the cash outlay. If you look seriously at owning a boat there is no way you can justify the expense financially. It's what you get out of it that really counts.

Just my thoughts! Ultimately, you're the only one that can make the decision to layout the cash or not.

EDIT: While I was typing this long winded post Dave posted his and has some good suggestions to think about.

Edited by - GaryB on 11/05/2012 19:15:17

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5371 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2012 : 20:54:17

Ok - one word about Wolfeboro NH - its hoy-falloy, hootie-tootie, where the old money goes on vacation. It's where former candidate Willard Romney lives!!!!
So if I had an opportunity to join a yacht club in that neighborhood at $15k and planned to integrate into Wolfeboro living, I'd do it as soon as I could cough up the $$$.
Is it a lot of green? Yes! Will the club be around for awhile? In that neighborhood, I'd say yes. They're not making any more Lake Winnepesaukees or points of land jutting out into it.
If the club were down in Alton Bay or Wiers Beach I might think twice. But in Wolfeboro, Meredith or Moultonboro, no question about it. In real estate the mantra is location, location, location.
And if you decide you don't need it after a few years, I'll take it just about when I'm ready to retire.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2012 : 02:28:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 Ok - one word about Wolfeboro NH - its hoy-falloy, hootie-tootie, where the old money goes on vacation. It's where former candidate Willard Romney lives!!!!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Nice prediction! "I say Willard, old chap, could you get my martini and my gold plated winch handle? I forgot them when we tied up."

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3462 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2012 : 04:34:04

I seem to recall years ago just before buying my boat, looking over my options to keep a boat on the upper Potomac, a little further down or on the Chesapeake. The Chesapeake had the best sailing but would have severely limited my sailing to weekends and not frequently. I chose the upper Potomac which was closest to work and my house but had considered down toward the Occoquan River area. I recall a yacht club there seems similar to your deal but it cost $30K to basically buy your slip/join the Club and then had annuial dues, also significantly less than annual docking at a regular marina. In this case, it was double the cost of your share price to join "The Club" and I would be considerably further away from both work and my home that would also have impacted frequency to get on the boat or to join in the social activities and I believe they also had a pool on the grounds.

So, a lot has to do with the whole package, how they deal with scheduled or unscheduled maintenance effecting the annual dues and how convenient it is for where you work and live versus your other options. These are big factors that enter into the decision making and really makes it only a decision that you can make as we are not in your situation nor privy to all the details.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2012 : 05:21:24

The comment above about what things will look like in 15 years may not really apply.

Will you still be sailing in 15 yrs? Will you be able to take advantage of all the membership privileges? If there is any uncertainty, then pay the penalty and pay your dues over time.

Then if you back out in 2 years you are only out a portion of the fee rather than the full 15,000. Also, remember that the fees are partly there to set the bar for who attends the club. If you are already balking at the cost you may find that you don't fit the clubs society very well.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2012 : 07:09:44

If the cash seems like a reach for you, be sure to ask some pointed questions about assessments. What have they had in the past 5-10 years, and what assessments are being proposed to the members for the coming year (or more)? Sometimes the blue-bloods think nothing of hitting everyone up for a "mere" 10 grand for new adornments on or in the "house." (Asking the question just might disqualify you from membership, but so be it.

)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/06/2012 07:10:48

CateP
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
108 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2012 : 07:48:19

These are all great replies and have really helped with seeing things from a variety of perspectives. I also like some of the questions posed about "capital improvements" that the club may be planning and the dues history.

If I end up joining, my initial membership cost will not be gaining any interest and will only be worth what I paid for it (club rules).

And as for the current membership profile? Well I think there are certainly some folks who didn't bat an eye at the membership cost and there are others who saw it as a way of having access to some private waterfront property without the property tax. BTW-most of the really wealthy folks around here have their own docks and waterfront property. Some of the boathouses could be houses themselves (for power boats). The members I have met seem like very nice people who have a passion for sailing (and Sunday football).

This whole notion of "yacht club" is new to me so I really appreciate everyone sharing their stories. It IS a big decision for me and deserves careful consideration. Thanks again everyone!!

Edited by - on

CateP
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
108 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2012 : 07:52:32

Oh and one more thing. The club is 5 minutes from my house. Less than 30 minutes from thinking about whether to go sailing and hoisting the sails.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2272 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2012 : 10:52:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by CateP
 Oh and one more thing. The club is 5 minutes from my house. Less than 30 minutes from thinking about whether to go sailing and hoisting the sails.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Proximity is a huge plus, and is the main reason I stay in the Delaware River instead of the more beautiful and distant Chesapeake.

If there's a firmly established precedent for cashing out your equity at full value upon leaving the club, and an assurance that significant assessments are unlikely, then your true cost is just the dues plus lost interest/dividends/capital appreciation on the $15,000. And you are paying $1000/year less for mooring/storage closer to home, and joining what sounds like a nice community of sailors/boaters. Sounds like a lot of upside potential if you can afford to have $15,000 tied up.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2012 : 18:34:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by CateP
 ...If I end up joining, my initial membership cost will not be gaining any interest and will only be worth what I paid for it (club rules)...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's almost universal with yacht clubs and country clubs. I only mentioned the $20K because you said you could "sell it later"--what you meant was you could get a refund later.

This sounds better and better to me... If it doesn't turn out to be as good as it sounds, you can bail for essentially no cost, given what you'll have saved in just a year or two (or more) of storage costs.

Nice dilemma!

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2012 : 18:52:37

I guess I just don't get it. I can't see spending $15k to save $83.33/month in mooring/storage fees. I understand being close to home and the social aspects but to me that is a very steep price to pay.

Then again I'm not a yacht club type of person (at least not a hoyty/toyty type). I could fit in a good 'ol boy club though! Admission in that type of club is a couple cases of Bud and the attire is cutoffs and a T-shirt. No sandals allowed! Fire pit on the beach where everyone gathers at dark to watch the moon come up over the bay/lake to exchange stories after a day full of sailing.

Oh, Oh, Oh! My bad. I just had a flash back to being 20 again! Sorry!

I have friends that love being a member of a yacht club. I have nothing against yacht clubs or the people that belong to them. I'd just rather be sailing than socializing. That's just me. It's my choice.

As I and others have said, it's really your decision. Only you can make the final call for what works for you.

Whatever decision you make "Be Happy"!

Edited by - GaryB on 11/06/2012 18:57:19

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2272 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2012 : 20:31:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 I guess I just don't get it. I can't see spending $15k to save $83.33/month in mooring/storage fees. I understand being close to home and the social aspects but to me that is a very steep price to pay...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
OP would not be "spending" $15k, but merely tying it up in a non-interest-bearing equity. Upon leaving the club, the $15k appears to be fully refunded by the club. So if this scenario is accurate, the only cost is the loss of annual investment appreciation. But the benefit is $1000/year lower mooring/storage and the social benefits.

As I said before, sounds like an easy decision if OP can afford to tie up $15k while a member of this club.

Edited by - TakeFive on 11/06/2012 20:32:11

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2012 : 10:17:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 I guess I just don't get it. I can't see spending $15k to save $83.33/month in mooring/storage fees. I understand being close to home and the social aspects but to me that is a very steep price to pay...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
OP would not be "spending" $15k, but merely tying it up in a non-interest-bearing equity. Upon leaving the club, the $15k appears to be fully refunded by the club. So if this scenario is accurate, the only cost is the loss of annual investment appreciation. But the benefit is $1000/year lower mooring/storage and the social benefits.

As I said before, sounds like an easy decision if OP can afford to tie up $15k while a member of this club.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That makes sense.

I guess you could rationalize the loss of annual investment appreciation by looking at what you gain from the facilities and being a member of the club.

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.