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Rough end to the season

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JimGo
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Initially Posted - 11/11/2012 : 21:53:48

I disappeared for a while, sorry 'bout that! Life caught up with me/us, and kept us plenty busy. We did get to take Dragon Wing out several times this season, and my boys got a chance to swim off the boat, which the LOVED. We had a great season, and the boat was great. As the end of the season approached, I asked the marina if I could stick around until mid-November, because I really hoped to get a few more sails in. The marina didn't have a problem with that at all. As luck would have it, I had to do some international business travel in mid-October, and came home to find the weather folks talking about a possible hurricane blowing in in 3 or 4 days. I had no idea where I was going to winter her (that was on my "to-do" list when I got home), and all the places I called were either full or couldn't handle pulling her before the storm rolled in. So, I went down Saturday before Sandy hit and pulled the engine, sails, electronics, and most of the other valuables off the boat. I then added extra lines (bow and stern were tied off twice, with the bow going to different cleats for added insurance). Dragon Wing, another sailboat, the marina's tug boat (in the neighboring slip), and a small power boat were the only boats in the marina when I left late Saturday night. I checked on her early Sunday as I headed home (the mandatory evacuation was about to take effect and traffic was fun!) and everything looked as good as I could hope for. I said goodbye, just in case, and then headed on my way.

I watched the news like crazy, hoping for some view of the marina as the storm blew in, and then out again. Unfortunately, I didn't see anything. Then, as I was starting to fear for the worst, my cousin sent me a text message - someone he knew had ridden out the storm in that area, and he asked them to take a picture of my boat. She was still afloat! The tug next to us was under water, but Dragon Wing was still there, standing tall. My home area was hit fairly hard, but my house survived relatively unscathed (no power until Tuesday afternoon). I was still digging out from work at work and the storm just made thing worse, so I couldn't get any time off to go check on her during the week, plus parts of the shore were still closed anyway. I took solice in having seen the picture of her afloat.

I called the marina manager on Wednesday to see if he needed me to move my boat while they raised the tug. He said no, we were fine, but that our boat had "taken a beating." That made me nervous. When I finally got there on Saturday, I was really disheartened.

I called the insurance company last weekend, and the earliest they could come to see her is this coming Tuesday (almost 2 weeks after the storm, and a week and a half after I called). I'll find out then what's going to happen, but after talking to a local repair shop, to looks like she's likely to be totaled.

I took a lot of pictures that day. [URL="http://photobucket.com/Dragon_Wing_Storm_Damage"]You can see them here[/URL]. I've added a few below.

We stopped down again yesterday, and she's taking on rain water, and a lot of it. The battery compartment in the starboard settee has a LOT of water, and the aft berth and one of the drawers in the galley had water, which is all new. There's also water coming into the v-berth. As for the outside, well, there's a lot of damage.

I was glad to see that KeelDad's boat survived - at least there will be at least one more C-25 in OC next season!

Pre-Storm:

Post-Storm:

[I updated the photobucket album and that broke the links, so I updated the pictures]

- Jim
Formerly of 1984 C25 named Dragon Wing

NOTE: In my case, PLEASE don't confuse stars/number of posts with actual knowledge. On any topic.

Edited by - JimGo on 11/12/2012 11:27:36

sailboat
Navigator

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Response Posted - 11/11/2012 : 22:24:36

Looks like a sad day. It was hard to look at the pictures. Sorry to hear.

Edited by - on

pfduffy
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Response Posted - 11/12/2012 : 06:55:29

Very sad so see. Hope your insurance comes through.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 11/12/2012 : 07:25:26

Sorry regarding the damage to your boat. That one damage point at the bow...probably no surprise to tell you that the bow/deck/forward stay is a major structural point and a hard one to repair.

A long time ago, there was a guy that had his 70s vintage Cat go thru similar damage caused by the forward stay hitting the travel arm crossbeam when the boat slipped in the travel arm belts as it was being raised off of maintenance blocks. This tensioned the forward stay pulling up a foot of the same bow/deck area. His boat was older than yours - The marina decided not to go through insurance. Since he had bought the boat not long before the accident, I believe the marina paid him the total cost.

It is so sad looking at the photos. You have such a nice boat. But for 2-3 damaged areas, the rest of the boat looks fine with just a few things that need attention. The bow/deck area, the pulpit and the starboard rub rail area(s) looked like the main damaged areas. But it is that one structural area (bow/deck area) that will probably be the decision point regarding what the insurance company decides to do. My thought is they may very well total the boat and if they do not, then it is that bow/deck damage that must be reviewed with them as to a professional assessment of returning it to same structural integrity.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 11/12/2012 : 08:13:46

So sorry to hear about your boat.

Looks like the tug boat did most of the damage. Any idea if it was properly secured for the storm or just left like it was when it last came in to port? Looks like if it hadn't been in the slip next to yours you might have come out with just some rub marks.

These boats are apparently really tough, she's still floating (albeit battered) while the tug boat is sitting on the bottom. Pretty impressive!

Edited by - on

JimGo
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Response Posted - 11/12/2012 : 08:33:48

Gary, I'm not sure how well the tug was tied up; I hadn't paid much attention to it. Apparently, when the tug sank, she listed to port, which I think put the wheelhouse and rail closer to my boat. I agree, these are tough boats - of the 4 that were still in the marina before the storm came, Dragon Wing was the only one still on the surface after the storm (they brought in that center console after the storm).

Larry, ironically, when I started looking at boats 2 years ago, I had found a C25 with damage to the same area of the boat. It was in researching the repair work for that boat that I had stumbled upon this forum, and I learned about how critical that area is from a structural perspective. The minute I saw that section had ripped off, I knew I was in trouble, and that this wasn't going to be an easy/cheap fix. I have a respected local marina that has experience working on sailboats (the owner used to own a sailing marina) working up an estimate for me. You're also right, the port said has some scuff marks and the like, but it's really not in bad shape. The starboard side and deck is where all the damage is. There's a lot of fiberglass damage, and a lot of mangled/missing stainless steel.

As I said above, my kids enjoyed swimming off the boat during the season, but we quickly learned that climbing back aboard using the stern ladder leaves a lot to be desired. If she gets repaired, rather than totaled, I'm thinking about having the stern rail redesigned so it will be easier to get out via the ladder, and I'm probably going to make steps/treads for the ladder.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 11/12/2012 : 09:23:35

Maybe you can have them cut down the transom so it's flush with the seats.

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cshaw
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Response Posted - 11/12/2012 : 09:33:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 I learned about how critical that area is from a structural perspective. The minute I saw that section had ripped off, I knew I was in trouble, and that this wasn't going to be an easy/cheap fix.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Jim,

Very sorry to see your boat damaged! All of us that live in Hurrican prone areas run the risk of the same sad experience....

But depending on how much work you can do yourself, and what a good repairman may charge, it may not be as bad as you are thinking right now......

While it is quite true the bow is a very highly loaded area, in the days before the stem fitting had a strap running down the forward edge of the bow (mid to late 70's) a Catalina 30 ended up pulling up the forward 3 feet of the deck due to a really high load in the forestay. She almost sank from scooping up water!

However, they did a fine job of repair and reattaching the deck up there. But most importantly, they welded on a 12" long tang to the stem fitting that allowed thru bolting the stem fitting to the hull. She was still sailing fine when we moved to Texas years later. It also did not take any time at all for me to remove Confetti's stem fitting and have a tang welded on for thru bolts into the leading edge of the bow!! Very soon after that, I noticed the stem fittings ALL had tangs on them on the newer boats.

So, from a strength standpoint, if you decide to go the repair route, adding an oversize tang (2ft, etc.??) to get down to the undamaged area of the bow leading edge) should eliminate any structural load concerns, and it cost very little to have the tang welded on.

The rail damage "looks" terrible, but I had a Tartan 30 on port tack crash into Confetti, and her bow went thru my 150 all the way till her keel leading edge hit Confetti's rail and stopped her. Confetti sank all the way to the mast, and the tartan slid back off into the water and Confetti popped up. Her rail and lifelines looked just like yours, and was able to be repair just fine (OK, the gel coat repair was not "perfect", but structurally she is fine).

So, its a hard decision to repair or total out that had a lot of factors to think about. But from a structural standpoint, if the structural concerns were the only concerns, those are actually quite easy to address. The cosmetic factors are where, in my experience, you can really run up the repair costs (but that is a function of how important the cosmetics are to you... like I said, lots of factors to think about.

Again, very sorry to hear of her being damaged, but glad she survived!!!

Chuck

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 11/12/2012 : 09:42:24

I think it needs a bowsprit....

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JimGo
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Response Posted - 11/12/2012 : 10:03:01

Ray, while I agree that something along those lines would look great on my boat, I'm not sure that my wife would be of the same opinion. :)

Chuck, thanks for the feedback. I'll have to keep that in mind! I'm a little worried about the area around the starboard rail, where the fiberglass is so badly damaged that the plywood core is exposed. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable patching that myself, or the area around the stantion bases/hand rail which may have weakened from the hit. You're right, though, if this was just a busted bow pulpit or stern rail, I'd be inclined to replace those myself.

Gary, the idea of cutting down the transom scares me, but is interesting!

Edited by - on

cshaw
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Response Posted - 11/12/2012 : 10:17:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 I'm a little worried about the area around the starboard rail, where the fiberglass is so badly damaged that the plywood core is exposed. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable patching that myself, or the area around the stantion bases/hand rail which may have weakened from the hit.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Jim,

I would have someone good do the actual fiberglass repairs. You may also end up setting the stantions bases on a good size stainless backing plate (match drilled to match the holes in the stantions) and the same on the inside after the glass is put pack together

Confetti's rail also had the wooden core exposed, but epoxy is amazing stuff strength wise...... Then you can replace the hardware (stantions and lifelines and rubrail and the take the stem fitting to get the extra long tang and re-attach it.

If you look at the repair approach, I guess what I am suggesting is only get a professional to do the things you don't think you can do and see where the costs (and hassle factor) comes out..

Good luck! We are are all pulling for you no matter which direction things go!

Chuck

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 11/12/2012 : 13:15:56

Oh man, I'm so sad to hear/see this. I had been wondering about how you fared, since you were right in the disaster zone.

If you end up totaled, you might want to consider a C250, since the open transom and ladder configuration is perfect for swimming. A water ballast model would give you a swing keel that would work well for your skinny water (although you'd give up a lot of headroom). If configured with a popup rudder, it would even be beachable.

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JimGo
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Response Posted - 11/12/2012 : 13:24:42

I've been looking at those, Rick. I'm really torn, though. I love the cockpit, and obviously that's where I'll be spending most of my time. I also like the kick-up rudder idea, and I think they are lighter and a little easier to trailer. But I'm not a huge fan of the cabin of the 250's. I hope to spend some weekends aboard the boat as my boys get older (we spent one night this summer and it was fun), and I like the idea of being able to close off the v-berth for privacy.

I also need to look into the water ballast a little more and see how they fare in a marine environment, and their suitability for coastal cruising. I've read (but haven't researched enough to understand how legitimate it is) some criticism about the use of water as a balast versus lead/iron.

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JimGo
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Response Posted - 11/12/2012 : 13:33:46

The boat that also caught my eye is the [URL="http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/30769"]O'Day 272LE[/URL]. I like the wing keel, the extra 2 feet (yeah, 2-foot-itis) and the extra beam. But it also has an easier ladder, and it has a wheel. I find it frustrating some times to sail with my family, because my kids want to sit close to me (which isn't frustrating, I'm flattered that they want attention) and I wind up having to shoo them away before I can come about. Or I wind up whacking them in the head with the tiller as I'm trying to steer because they've scooted away from their mom to get comfortable on the leeward seat and pretend they are captain. I know I'd give up some "feel" with the wheel, but part of me thinks that the over-all experience would be more enjoyable for everyone if they didn't have to play musical chairs as often!

The O'Day would allow us to stay in Great Egg Bay if we can find a home for her that's in our budget. If not, we may also consider moving to Tuckerton, or to the Delaware. I wish I had hit you up for a ride during the season; I'd like to see what it's like out there.

Edited by - JimGo on 11/12/2012 13:36:55

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 11/12/2012 : 15:37:43

Ah yes, the age-old wheel vs. tiller debate! You're one of the first I've heard of that isn't religiously attached to what he currently has.

If they total your boat, it does present a nice opportunity to move up in size. I can't debate that. I've seen that O'Day before and it's a nice boat.

As for the C250's open cabin, I'm not sure exactly how much privacy your want, and what kind of privacy the C25 offers. But my boat came with closet rod mounts on both sides the forward end of the aft berth. My boat has no rod for it, but it appears that a prior owner used to have a curtain rod and curtain to provide privacy in the aft berth. You might consider this easy mod. It's certainly not a stateroom, but it could provide some level of privacy.

I was suggesting water ballast only because of your skinny water. I'm sure you know that the WK version of the 250 provides much more headroom and less complexity than the WB version. If you move up to the Delaware, you could also consider a fin since it's deep almost everywhere aside from some isolated mud flats.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 11/12/2012 : 16:34:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 Gary, I'm not sure how well the tug was tied up; I hadn't paid much attention to it...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Looking at the first photo you posted I'd say the lines running over the stern were sawed through pretty quickly plus they are at a very bad angle to keep the tug from moving side to side. Especially the starboard line, it looks like it is run over some kind of a grate.

Edited by - GaryB on 11/12/2012 16:37:48

JimGo
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Response Posted - 11/12/2012 : 17:50:32

Good point, Gary. I am curious to see what the insurance company says. I've tried to share the pictures with them.

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islander
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Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 15:38:42

Jeez Jim, Sorry about your baby. Honestly that tug would have scared me and I probably would have moved to a different slip but I can't get over the fact that the mast is still standing. The 272LE is one of my picks, Lots of room and a wing too. Capri 26 is another but still a little pricey. I hope it all works out for the best.

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JimGo
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Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 15:54:57

Just heard from the insurance guy, and she's totaled. They will be towing her away some time in the next week.

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TCurran
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Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 17:04:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 Just heard from the insurance guy, and she's totaled. They will be towing her away some time in the next week.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sorry to hear that. The glass half-full in me says here is your chance to upsize without having to convince the wife it's time to move up.... I do like Ray's suggested bowsprit.

Good luck and make sure you post pictures of whatever you end up buying.

Edited by - TCurran on 11/13/2012 17:04:58

JimGo
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Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 17:54:07

I like your way if thinking, Tom. Unfortunately, to my wife, this is the perfect opportunity to reassess whether we want to have a boat.

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Stinkpotter
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Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 19:38:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 Unfortunately, to my wife, this is the perfect opportunity to reassess whether we want to have a boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">To me, once you've had one, you can't go back! You can downsize, you can upsize, you can same-size, but you have to have something in the water.

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pastmember
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Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 20:20:31

272 is a wonderful boat, you may not want the LE. Were it me I would look for the non inboard model without the LE at the end but either boat is a great step for a C 25 owner. Not too many new systems, not a lot heavier, just more space.

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JimGo
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Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 20:52:01

Frank,
In my (still very novice) mind, I keep going back and forth about the inboard. I'm not thrilled about the difficulty maintaining it, but part of me likes the idea of not having an engine hanging off the back of the boat (ok, I'll use the proper term, the transom). It makes it easier when discussing LOA with marinas, and as I understand it, some of the inboards can make it a little easier when docking. I did appreciate being able to take my outboard off the boat when Sandy was on her way! That was a big investment (we bought a new 9.9 electric start Tohatsu earlier this year) that I didn't have to worry about trying to recover, and that was a big deal.

I'm not entirely sold on the LE, either. What I really like about the 272 is the wider beam, longer hull, the wing keel, and the scoop at the back for the ladder. The LE gets me a wheel, which is a "nice to have" for me, but they all come with the inboard, too. I still have to wait to see how much money the insurance company is going to give me for my C25 before I figure out what to do, but the 272 is very attractive if I can find one in my price range.

Edited by - JimGo on 11/13/2012 20:59:30

Voyager
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Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 21:08:06

Whether you buy another Cat or a different boat, please make sure to have a marine surveyor inspect it from stem to stern! You will start to see a load of "unbelieveable bargains" on the market shortly, especially in the northeast that were somebody else's Sandy-fied casualties. This would be your best insurance...

Edited by - on

JimGo
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Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 23:09:23

Bruce, thats already in the plans, but thanks for the reminder!

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