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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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I think I'm having a (2) stroke!!

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nate
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240 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/22/2003 : 11:48:32

Kidding...but this whole outboard dilema is giving me a headache.
So here is the thing: I've been researching a new O/B for my 1987 C25 and have looked at all the offerings out there. The concensus on the board here is that the Honda gets 2 thumbs up for the 8hp 4-stroke 25" shaft.....but the cost is around $2500.00!!
So here is my dilema: I found an online company (marine-outboards.com) that sells a new Nissan 9.8, 25" shaft, electric start with alt for $1750 and will ship it to my doorstep for $40.00. The thing is that the motor is a 2-stroke model!
I know all the adantages of a 4-stroke vs 2-stroke but I'm getting everything I want in a motor and saving $700.00 (and 40 pounds) just for the inconvienence of having to mix oil/gas. I sail on Lake Mead and have no intentions of moving to California where emmisions standards are more rigid regarding 2-stroke motors.
I'd appreciate thoughts on the matter as you guys (gals) most always steer me in the right direction! Thanks....

Nate Adams
C25 #5695 WK/SR/Trad
"Heeling Properties"
Lake Mead, NV

Edited by - on

jfesi
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USA
101 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2003 : 12:24:22

If the cash is the real issue, sounds like a bargain, BUT the $$$ trade off may not be worth it later. I questioned the extra dollars last year when I bought my OB. I ended up with a Yamaha 9.9 4 stroke. The main reason was the smell. Some days I only use my engine for a total of a half hour, others 2 hours if I want to go out to the Gulf. I NEVER have any exhaust fumes no matter the duration of use, and only hold my nose when those stink potters with their "old" two stokes pass by (The stinkpot engines might be brand new, but the exhaust fumes make them seem so old in comparison to 4 strokes)The fumes can get to anyone, and depending on your crew it can ruin the whole day, sounds silly, but it is a founded truth. Addtionally, the fuel economy is better(although the better miles are not gonna pay the OB price difference.)less maintenance and aggravation, and from a environmetal standpoint, it really is better for marine life. Lastly 4 strokes seem to make a lot less noise.
I weighed all these factors out and a 4 stroke ended up being my only choice. No regrets. GOOD LUCK, hope this sheds some light on your decision.
Tropical Sleigh WB619 Sarasota FL

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dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2003 : 12:40:11

Being a current 2-stroke user, I feel your dilemma. As you mentioned the consensus on this board is going to be for the 4 stroke motor for a number of reasons(fuel economy, pollution,...etc), but you bring up an interesting point concerning cost.

In my case, I primarily daysail from my marina and, when leaving the slip I only motor for about 5-10 minutes going out and 5-10 minutes on the way in. My goal everytime I go out is to use the motor sparingly. This results in me sometimes only using one 6 gallon tank per season, though the average is more like a 1 1/2 tanks. For the sake of argument, say I use 12 gallons(2 tanks) of fuel per year at a cost of $20.00($1.50/gl for 12 gallons plus oil).

Let's say a 4 stroke gets 50% better fuel economy, so in my case my yearly fuel consumption would be 6 gallons for a total of $10.00. Now if a 4 stroke costs $700.00 more than a 2 stroke, and my yearly savings is $10.00 with the 4 stroke, then it would take me 70 years to break even on the purchase price.

Do you think I could get the motor to last that long so I can recoup my costs? The bigger question might be,...Can I last that long?

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

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dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2003 : 12:51:24

"I NEVER have any exhaust fumes no matter the duration of use..." - Rochester

Now, I've never smelled the exhaust of a 4 stroke, and I know it emits less than a 2 stroke, but your motor NEVER emits any fumes?

I thought zero emission gasoline engines were an oxymoron!

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - dlucier on 01/22/2003 13:47:05

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nate
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240 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2003 : 12:54:42

Don,
I'm in the same boat...so to speak, I clear the marina in a couple minutes and shut the motor down until it's time to head in. There are a few occasions where I'll motor across the lake to a raft-up but mostly it's short duration use that negates the fuel economy issue.
I do plan to have this boat for several years until the Air Force stops moving us around so I want a dependable motor which makes me lean toward the Honda a little more but cost is still a very big part of the equation. Also, I didn't mention that currently I have to drive over a hour to have my Yamaha serviced down in Bullhead City. The same would hold true if I went with a Honda, as there is no place for service here in Vegas for Hondas. Which I think is ridiculous!!
Thanks for your thoughts.

Nate

Edited by - on

pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2003 : 13:29:25

Nate!

Go to http://www.snugharborboats.com/prod_CompleteListing.asp

Phone # is 770-831-0403

They have a 2003 Honda 8 hp long shaft on sale for dealer cost.$2175.00. The listing says a special order fell through.

Maybe they'll match the shipping cost of that other dealer.

I don't know if it's the 25" shaft.

It's the second item on the list.

Please say hi to Ann for me. She knows of my Marinette dilema.

I hope this helps.

Paul

Edited by - pwhallon on 01/22/2003 13:31:05

Edited by - pwhallon on 01/22/2003 13:33:16

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Douglas
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Response Posted - 01/22/2003 : 13:31:19

GET THE HONDA I say again GET THE HONDA oh was I yelling well its nothing compared to the anoying noise of a two stroke. Im not a big tree hugger either but GET THE HONDA.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2003 : 14:00:39

Doug,

For someone who recently sold his C25 due to possible employment difficulties, you of all people should realize that sometimes money can be an issue that isn't so easily dismissed. It may not be too accurate to presume that everyone has the funds to buy whatever they want. In Nate's post, he said he knows about all the "advantages" of the 4 stroke over the 2, but his question was in relation to the cost, and not pollution, noise, fuel economy...etc.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - dlucier on 01/22/2003 14:20:53

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jellyfish
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Response Posted - 01/22/2003 : 14:56:48

I have had 4 and 2 on my boat. I know alot of people brag on the yama 9.9 4 banger, well the one I had one wouldnt even make a good fishing reef! another consideration for me was weight. not on the boat but, on me. I can lift and mount and dismount my little johnson 8 2 stroke by myself. not so with a 4 stroke, I have to have help. another thing is the oil mixing, to me it is like the old "just set it and forget" commerical. I mix my oil when I fill the tanks, I never have to worry about checking or changing oil. my little johnson cranks on the first or second pull everytime and is easy enough for my girlfriend to crank. give me the 2 stroke and the $1000 dif everytime!

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Champipple
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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2003 : 15:32:40

Do you motor a lot? If not then noise shouldn't be an issue. Is the outboard new? then Electric Start probably shouldn't be either...The alternator is always a good choice.

If you can afford a 2 stroke right now, then I say get it. The resale market for outboards is always been fairly stable if you have taken care of it. . .You can always sell it later and buy the one you really really want when your numbers come in...

dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/22/2003 : 15:52:34

Nate: As a 2002 Honda 8 Power Thrust owner, I have to say that the money and the weight probably probably makes that Nissan a good choice for you. The Honda is nice, but its best characteristics may not be worth that much to some people, and it definitely weighs more! Ask about a low pitch, large diameter prop (as big as will fit under the anticavitation plate) for better handling around the dock or trailer.

I'd recommend Yamaha's 2-stroke if they made models with longer shafts--Yamaha uses a 100-1 gas/oil mix and is less objectionable than most.

If you get a good deal on a "Long Shaft" Honda, pass it up. It isn't long enough. The Extra Long is the only one worth the money.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 01/22/2003 15:54:40

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ClamBeach
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Response Posted - 01/22/2003 : 16:27:13

Wish I had an easy answer for you...

I ran two strokes for years... up to 120hp... Strangely enough I'm one of those folks that likes the smell of 2 stroke exhaust... So it never bothered me very much. However, other folks I took out got real sick from smelling 2 stroke fumes when trolling for Salmon downwind.

Your satisfaction with a 2 stroke may depend on which of the above groups you (and your crew) belong to... and how much you run your engine.

Modern 2 oil-injected strokes do work pretty well and are pretty clean running compared to older equipment. (I'd stay away from any older design 2 strokes that require pre-mixed fuel)

All that said, I'm simply not too sure about the Nissan. (which used to be "Tohatsu") I don't see too many around the marina, and I think decent parts/service stations are few and far between. You may have good luck with it though, there are not as many parts to go haywire.

In the end, you lays down your money and takes your chances... You might use google to search on Nissan Outboards and see what you can find in the way of user commentary... good or bad.

$2500 for an 8hp outboard... Heh, and I thought I got raped when I paid $1350 for my Honda 8 a few years back... I'd better take care of that puppy.

I guess another question for you is what you have now for an outboard.. and what's wrong with it? Maybe have it overhauled or look for a used outboard (somewhat dicey)

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 01/22/2003 : 17:50:20

I've had a Nissan 8 hp electric start onboard for 9 years now and have never had a problem...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

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Douglas
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Response Posted - 01/22/2003 : 18:34:01

Don: If money is a factor (Key) or not why look at new motors. I bought my 8Hp Honda with only 25 hours on it for $1400. If money is the issue I would find a good used engine.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2003 : 19:08:06

"If money is a factor (Key) or not why look at new motors...If money is the issue I would find a good used engine."

I agree that if money were a factor, a used motor would save the most money, but herein lies the problem. You were fortunate in that you found a relatively new used motor, but me being someone who constantly peruses newspaper classifieds(I work for the state's two largest newspapers), internet classifieds, auction sites, tradin' times, marina's,...etc, and I also have a personal friend who own's a boat/motor dealership, I can tell you that finding a good used longshaft outboard suitable for our sailboats is, at least in my boat crazy vicinity, pretty rare. The only viable alternative costwise anyway, is the choice that Nate is considering.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

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albert
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Response Posted - 01/22/2003 : 19:39:32

Nate,

I've had a standard shaft Tohatsu 18hp electric start for over 10 years. The only time it gave me a problem was my fault. I had stored it for a couple of years without draining the carb. It got gunked up. Easy enough to clean. Starts right up on the first "push of the button".

<img src="http://www.comhertz.com/abacus/Pics2/tohatsu.jpg " border=0>

<img src="http://www.comhertz.com/abacus/Pics2/tohatsu2.jpg " border=0>

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

Edited by - albert on 01/22/2003 19:48:24

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dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 01/22/2003 : 19:55:29

Nice pictures, Albert! I see you have your autopilot at the ready. <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

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Gloss
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1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2003 : 20:01:30

I just placed an order today for an 8hp Honda, 2003 model power thrust (which has the extra long shaft) electric start (for the 12 amp regulated alternator) tiller steered. It was 2500 (choke) including shipping. What gripes my butt the most is the 9.75% sales tax in Tennessee. I didn't have time to shop for a better deal as I'm going to the Keys for 3 weeks in about a week and a half.

Frank

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pwhallon
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Response Posted - 01/22/2003 : 20:07:39

I have heard good things about Tohatsu as well.

Are they made by Nissan?

I remember my first outboard. A 1965 65HP Evinrude 2 stroke, of course.

It ran great and all the time.

I took it to the shop and they tested it. It was totally messed up. I couldn't tell because it always started fast and ran. I didn't know any better either.

2 strokes seem to be almost indestructable.

P

Edited by - pwhallon on 01/22/2003 20:08:31

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TLJ
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Response Posted - 01/22/2003 : 20:40:48

Hi Nate,What if they change the rules on Lake Mead to only allow 4 strokes.Look what they did with jet skis.If the lake stays low they may try.TLJ

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albert
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Response Posted - 01/23/2003 : 00:03:25

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Nice pictures, Albert! I see you have your autopilot at the ready. <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Thanks Don. I replaced the motor bracket a couple of weeks ago. The pictures are prior to taking her out for a trial run with my standard shaft outboard with the prop (for the first time) fully underwater. Works fine, but I'm a little concerned with swamping the motor head in rough weather.

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

Edited by - on

lcharlot
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Antigua and Barbuda
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Response Posted - 01/23/2003 : 00:31:19

Here's another factor no one else mentioned: Un-reliability and plug fouling at low idling speeds. My first sailboat had an 8hp Mariner 2-stroke, and if I had to idle for more than a couple of minutes, like while waiting in line at the launch ramp to haul out, the engine would often "load up" with oil, fouling the spark plugs and dying just when I needed it most. I never have this problem with a 4-stroke, since there is no oil in the gas. That Yamaha ran fine as long as it was above 3500 rpm, but it went through spark plugs like there was no tomorrow. Pulling and cleaning the plugs was something I did as part of the pre-launch routine every time that boat went in the water; if I forget, the motor would most likely refuse to start, the plugs being still fouled from the last time it was used. The Yamaha dealer mechanic went through everything on that engine - ignition, fuel system, carb, reed valves, and could not find anything out of spec. I tried setting it to a slightly higher idle speed, but worried about damaging the gears when shifing it. I sold that boat in '94 and got a Catalina 22 ("Quiet Time"'s immediate predecessor) with a Honda 5, and that little one-lung motor was as reliable as the sunrise, as is the Honda 10 on "Quiet Time". I just wish it had a bigger alternator; 5 amps isn't nearly enough. I am sold on 4-strokes, and would never buy another 2-stroke outboard if I had a choice. Smelly, unreliable, half the fuel economy of a 4-stroke, and I suspect that within a few years they will be banned on most freshwater lakes that are a municipal drinking water supply. As for the weight issue, I have to concede that point to the 2-stroke crowd; the Honda and Yamaha 9.9's with the extra-long-shaft are backbreakers to mount and dismount and there's no denying it. But I STILL want one! Even if they are ridiculously overpriced! :)

Larry Charlot
Catalina 25 #1205 "Quiet Time"
Sacramento, CA

Edited by - on

Gary B.
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Response Posted - 01/23/2003 : 12:09:31

As somebody who loudly touts the Yamaha often, and one who has had Hondas, I'd like to ring in. For the places I use my boat, the Yamaha is by far the right answer for me......but as I read your post, it sounds like a 2 stroke Nissan would fit your needs just great. If you really aren't concerned with efficiency, and don't plan to motor much at all, the emissions aren't going to be enough to concern a conservationist like me.....I am cost conscious enough to feel your pain. My vote, for your situation, is GET THE NISSAN, I repeat, GET THE NISSAN. Oh, was I yelling? It's because I am tired of people thinking that there is only one answer to the auxiliary problem. I think it totally depends upon each person's situation.

Repectfully,

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR

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RichardG
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Response Posted - 01/25/2003 : 01:01:19

I am usually a proponant of 2-strokes due to cost, reliability, maintanence and weight reasons.

But as TLJ points out, I understand a ban of personal watercraft from Lake Mead is close (however, I understand the ban has been put off till sometime this Spring?). Lake Mead, with much less water than the oceans to dilute gas put into it, could expand this ban to include 2-strokes (like Lake Tahoe). An assessment of the governing powers in Nevada towards such an expansion might be wise before you buy the Nissan. The length of time you expect to remain in Nevada could also weigh in.

Also, how close is nearest Nissan service?

"Long live the 2-stroke and curtain burner!"

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

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