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Asym using jib halyard

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mrapkins
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Initially Posted - 01/14/2013 : 09:16:32

What are the pros and cons of using the jib halyard as an asymmetrical spinnaker halyard?

Pros:
It's there and bought and paid for.
No need to drop the mast.

Cons:
Lateral forces may pull the halyard off the sheave.

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 01/14/2013 : 09:27:03

Cons: When you jybe the spinnaker to the opposite side of the forestay you'll be chafing either the halyard or the top of your sail. Neither is designed for that abuse.

Our C-25 tall mast had a easy place to add a spinnaker halyard block that projects out in front of the forestay. It took about 30 minutes for someone to climb the mast and install it, and a good chunk of that time was just arranging halyards to safely climb the mast.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 01/14/2013 : 09:33:21

Con: If you use one halliard for both the jib and a spinnaker, you have to lower one sail and disconnect it from one sail before you can connect it to the other sail and raise it. During a sail change, the boat will be going dead slow while under the mainsail alone.

It isn't difficult or expensive to rig a spinnaker halliard, and by doing so, you will also have a spare halliard available, if you need it. (I once lost a national championship because the sail ripped and halliard went to the top of the mast, and I couldn't get it down, so that I could raise the #2 jib to finish the race.)

You can also use a spare halliard as a safety line when someone has to climb the mast.

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 01/14/2013 : 09:51:37

The IsoMat mast on my new boat has room for 6 halyards. That's when you start to get into overboard territory on a sloop. There are 6 sheaves, 2 aft, 2 forward below the forestay, and 2 forward above the forestay.

We only have 3 halyards rigged (one in each location), but when I had the mast down recently I was considering adding mast exit sheaves for 2 more. A second main halyard makes a nice topping lift and a spare jib halyard could be useful in an emergency. Of course the downside is that when at anchor I'd have to tie off 5 noisy halyards instead of 3. The boat yard put up my mast a few days earlier than I expected, so that kept me from doing unnecessary work.

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mrapkins
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Response Posted - 01/14/2013 : 12:22:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Con: If you use one halliard for both the jib and a spinnaker, you have to lower one sail and disconnect it from one sail before you can connect it to the other sail and raise it. During a sail change, the boat will be going dead slow while under the mainsail alone.

It isn't difficult or expensive to rig a spinnaker halliard, and by doing so, you will also have a spare halliard available, if you need it. (I once lost a national championship because the sail ripped and halliard went to the top of the mast, and I couldn't get it down, so that I could raise the #2 jib to finish the race.)

You can also use a spare halliard as a safety line when someone has to climb the mast.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I failed to add that I have a CDI furler and therefore don't ever use the jib halyard. For the 10 times a year I might use the asym, I don't think chafe will be an issue and no-one has agreed with the lateral forces pulling the jib off the sheave.

Also, I have yet to see a definitive answer to the maximum safe weight for a person to be hoisted up the mast. I weigh 205 and was told that that was to heavy to go up the mast. Better to drop the mast.

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mrapkins
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Response Posted - 01/14/2013 : 12:24:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 Cons: When you jybe the spinnaker to the opposite side of the forestay you'll be chafing either the halyard or the top of your sail. Neither is designed for that abuse.

Our C-25 tall mast had a easy place to add a spinnaker halyard block that projects out in front of the forestay. It took about 30 minutes for someone to climb the mast and install it, and a good chunk of that time was just arranging halyards to safely climb the mast.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You just added a block? To what specifically? Are you saying we can do this without a spinnaker crane? I don't suppose you have any photos???

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 01/14/2013 : 12:40:38

I don't have any photos.

There is a pin at the front of the masthead. This drawing is for a C-27 mast head, but the C-25 one is very very similar:

You can see the spinnaker block in that drawing, marked as optional.

I used a Garhauer block there. If you do this make sure that the shackle at the end of your spin halyard can't fit into the block and jam. Don't ask me how I know, but trust me that it took a crew member 20 minutes at the top of the mast to unjam it while the spinnaker sock was tied off to the mast. Not the highlight of last summer's sailing.

Our C-25 was made in 1984, I don't know if this is a "gen 2" feature or if the earlier mast heads also had them.

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Davy J
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Response Posted - 01/14/2013 : 13:58:30

I have a CDI furler and decided to use the crane:

[url="http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/2092/masthead-spinnaker-crane-brc-25-c-250-c-27-c-28.cfm"]Masthead Spinnaker Crane[/url]

It was easy to install and gets the block out in front of the furler. I keep the spinnaker halyard tied of to the pulpit when not in use.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 01/14/2013 : 14:12:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mrapkins
I failed to add that I have a CDI furler and therefore don't ever use the jib halyard. For the 10 times a year I might use the asym, I don't think chafe will be an issue and no-one has agreed with the lateral forces pulling the jib off the sheave.

Also, I have yet to see a definitive answer to the maximum safe weight for a person to be hoisted up the mast. I weigh 205 and was told that that was to heavy to go up the mast. Better to drop the mast.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Alex is correct that chafe is a problem if you use your jib halliard. When I bought my asym, I tried raising it with the jib halliard, and could see that chafe would soon damage either the sail or the halliard. But, it probably won't hurt to do it once. Try it and make up your own mind. I added another halliard after I tried it and saw how it worked.

The original wire-to-rope halliard on my boat jumped the sheave twice, and when it did, it jammed, and I couldn't get the sail up or down until I freed it up. If it jumps the sheave, you can't send a crewman up to free it unless you have a spare halliard, or unless you use the main halliard to send someone aloft, in which case, the crew doesn't have a safety line. A spare halliard gives you options which you don't have with only one jib halliard. I don't think the halliard would be any more likely to jump the sheave if you use it for an asym, but the wire-rope halliard can jump the sheave. That's why most folks recommend that the old halliards be upgraded to all-rope halliards.

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 01/14/2013 : 14:17:58

It's a good point to bring up the furler. Our C-25 didn't have a furler so I can't comment on if there are any clearance issues. We used a fairly large block (either a Garhauer 30 or 40) and the spinnaker halyard is well in front of the forestay.

There is no cost (besides an extra trip up the mast) in trying it without the crane and then adding the crane if you decide that you do need it. I didn't see any benefit to the crane on our boat, but they are all unique in their own little ways.

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 01/14/2013 : 18:06:58

DavyJ, do you run the Asym halyard in front of the furler?

I found that if I had the halyard run to either side of the furler, the halyard would snag into the folds as the Jib is furled! My solution was to run the halyard down to pulpit in front of the Jib.

Paul

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Davy J
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Response Posted - 01/14/2013 : 18:34:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">DavyJ, do you run the Asym halyard in front of the furler?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I keep both ends of the spinnaker halyard tied off on the pulpit. You can see how far forward they are in this photo I took last week.

When I hoist the spinnaker, I bring the halyard back to the mast.

Edited by - Davy J on 01/14/2013 18:39:04

britinusa
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Response Posted - 01/14/2013 : 18:59:07

We do the same thing. Happy to learn that I was not screwing up.

Paul

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mrapkins
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Response Posted - 01/18/2013 : 05:42:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 DavyJ, do you run the Asym halyard in front of the furler?

I found that if I had the halyard run to either side of the furler, the halyard would snag into the folds as the Jib is furled! My solution was to run the halyard down to pulpit in front of the Jib.

Paul
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Here's a picture of the stem setup on my boat:

The CDI FF4 furler is attached to the front of the stem fitting.

Does anyone see a problem with moving this attachment aft a little to free up the forward hole to attach my asymmetrical spinnaker tack block? (I don't know what the thingy is in the third hole - it was put there by the PO). If you can't tell, the anchor roller is located right next to the stem fitting on its starboard side)

Edited by - mrapkins on 01/18/2013 05:48:44

Davy J
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Response Posted - 01/18/2013 : 07:15:21

Here is what I did to mount a block (the photo was of my quick release pin, the block is not attached in the photo). I had a fairly large shackle on hand and just connected it through one of the other holes in the fitting. Maybe someone else has a better idea?

Edited by - Davy J on 01/18/2013 07:21:36

Lee Panza
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Response Posted - 01/20/2013 : 08:31:19

Here's a close look at the difficulty presented by a furler:

This is an old Harken model, but I've seen others that are at least conceptually similar.

As you can see, the swivel has tabs for connecting the jib halyard and the head of the sail. The latter is on the section that swivels as the sail is furled or unfurled, and it can catch a line run down past it parallel to the forestay.

On my rig I just added two sheaves at the forward hole in the truck, rather than a block on a pin through that hole like in the diagram Alex posted. That allowed me to run two halyards back and down through the mast (I had also added an exit block for the jib halyard below the top of the mast to prevent halyard wraps). This setup works OK if I tie-off both halyards to the front of the pulpit rail and keep them TIGHT (I found out the hard way what happens if the furler swivel tab can catch them and wind them around the forestay).

A block on a crane could still have this problem if the halyard is loose and the block slips around to the side of the crane bale. At some point in the future I'll fabricate an extension to bolt to both sides of the truck casting, with a pin well out in front of the truck as an axle, and I'll move the two sheaves forward. In the meantime I just need to remember to adjust both halyards whenever I tighten or loosen the backstay.

BTW, I added the second halyard partly just because I could, but I expect to use it to hoist the sock when I get the asym I'm planning on buying, so I can deploy the asym from the cockpit and not have to leave the tiller when I'm singlehanding.

BTW, if you want a slightly higher-resolution image, as well as a few others of the mods I did at the same time:

http://panza.smugmug.com/MYSAILBOAT/The-Boat-Renovation/Mast-Modifications/21650162_bHQXBG#!i=1744125146&k=pstBwjX

I had hoped that this Winter I would get that website caught-up with images of the other things I've been doing, but I'm in the midst of a complete overhaul of the electrical system now so I don't know when I'll get to it.

Edited by - Lee Panza on 01/20/2013 08:36:35

mrapkins
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Response Posted - 01/21/2013 : 10:21:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Davy J
 Here is what I did to mount a block (the photo was of my quick release pin, the block is not attached in the photo). I had a fairly large shackle on hand and just connected it through one of the other holes in the fitting. Maybe someone else has a better idea?

The other suggestion might be, to mount something on the side of your anchor roller? I thought about doing that as well, since my roller is on the other side, but never came up with a viable solution.

Well, great minds think alike!!!!! This is what I also decided to do - as a trial. If you've had no problems, then I will get the shackle.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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panhead1948
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Response Posted - 01/22/2013 : 09:31:47

I've been thinking about a spinnaker. I am definitly going to get the masthead spinnaker crane and install it before I put the mast up this spring. If I get one I'll bet all set up.

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mrapkins
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Response Posted - 04/21/2013 : 14:22:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Davy J
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">DavyJ, do you run the Asym halyard in front of the furler?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I keep both ends of the spinnaker halyard tied off on the pulpit. You can see how far forward they are in this photo I took last week.

When I hoist the spinnaker, I bring the halyard back to the mast.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

How exactly are you tying off the halyard on the pulpit? Do you have a shackle to attache the halyard to the spinnaker?

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Davy J
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Response Posted - 04/22/2013 : 09:38:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">How exactly are you tying off the halyard on the pulpit? Do you have a shackle to attache the halyard to the spinnaker?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I use a small halyard shackle, like this one:

The other end of the halyard is tied to the pulpit with a clove hitch.

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