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Short term dock - best bottom options

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britinusa
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Initially Posted - 01/20/2013 : 06:23:33

We are considering putting JD in the water at a dock down in Biscayne Bay for about 6 to 8 weeks so that we can get more sailing!

Currently, we keep the boat on the trailer at the side of the house. Due to the amount of work needed to get the boat on the water and back out, we restrict our sailing to trips of at least 4 nights: Friday, Sat, Sun Monday, pull out on Tuesday, but that does require 3 days off work and that's not always easy. So we figure that if we put the boat in the water at a slip for a while, we can head out each Friday around 4pm, sail all day Saturday/Sunday and head back home Sunday night satiated.

But the question is about treating the undersides!

We could do a full bottom paint, but would rather not unless it was the only option. We could pull the boat after a few weeks and clean the hull. Are there any other options you guys can think of? The goal is to increase our opportunities for sailing, but there is no way we would leave the boat in the water for the year... at not in our plans right now.

Paul

Joint Decision. (Sold)
PO C250WB 2005 Sail # 841.

Moved up to C34 Eximius

Updated August 2015

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 01/20/2013 : 06:42:33

I think a bare bottom would be fine for 2-4 weeks, but 6-8 is pushing it, especially in those warm waters. I suppose if you pulled weekly, and pressure washed... and put back in, it'd be OK, but that'd be a PITA...

Is there a reason you are against putting ablative on? I mean if you are just gelcoat now, it's sand with 80-150 grit, put a barrier on, and apply ablative. Not terribly hard to do, cost? Well, probably 1 gallon of barrier would be around $80, and your choice of ablative... You'll likely need 3-4 quarts of ablative bottom paint... I know for VC-17 (freshwater paint don't use in your case) that's about $150. So assuming ablative is around the same cost, it not horribly expensive, just time consuming.

Edited by - on

Davy J
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Response Posted - 01/20/2013 : 07:29:57

My boats bottom needs new paint in a bad way. I have a diver come to the house and scrub/scrape the bottom once a month. I'm not sure if that would work for you.

But I predict, if you put the boat in the water, it may never see your trailer again.....

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 01/20/2013 : 08:09:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Davy J
 But I predict, if you put the boat in the water, it may never see your trailer again.....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Uh huh....although slip fees at the marina are an extra expense to swallow.....the ability to drive out to the lake and be under sail in 15 minutes is nearly priceless. Hitting the lake after work for a quick sail, just to watch the sunset, then come back to your slip, tie up and go home......oh yeah!

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 01/20/2013 : 08:27:36

I agree that once it's in the water you'll like how easy it is to go sailing and keep it in the water.

If I were starting with a fresh gelcoat bottom today I'd probably use a good hard paint and not abalative. WA state (where I live) already makes it illegal to clean boats with abalative paint in the water, and I expect that will eventually happen everywhere. You can paint almost anything over hard paint, but have less options when painting over abalative.

Practical Sailor has lots of paint recommendations. If you are a subscriber you can find the most recent listings here:
http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_22/features/ps-tests-reveal-best-bottom-paints_10904-1.html

If not Bluewater Coppershield 45 Hard seems to be their recommended budget option at $95/gallon. That's pretty nice compared to the $270/gallon Micron 66 that I just used.

Edited by - on

DavidCrosby
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Response Posted - 01/20/2013 : 08:35:52

I sail out of a club where my C250 WK lives on its trailer. The mast is up, the sails are on. Basically the boat is ready to go. I arrive at the boat, remove the tie downs, wheel chocks, etc., hitch up and move it about 100 feet to the ramp. Very quick process.

Maybe you can find a marina with a ramp and proper parking and do something similar. Simply skip the bottom paint. Possibly save a few bucks while you are at it.

I will admit that having proper anchors for tie downs reduces the worry of having the boat blow over while sitting on the trailer fully rigged. However, the rigged boat and trailer spent most of a recent summer not tied down properly because I had to move to higher ground due to the lake flooding. We all survived some pretty hefty thunderstorms unscathed.

While I did not answer the question about treating the undersides, it might be an option.

Edited by - on

Voyager
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Response Posted - 01/20/2013 : 09:38:38

The main difference is whether you have to put the mast up and take it down.
Even on my 16 footer, if I could store the boat on the trailer mast up, it was a breeze to launch and go.
I had to add 1/2 an hour on each end of the outing by rigging and unrigging mast and sails- however they could have been better spent as another hour on the water.
So I'd reckon once you get the boat in the water, it'll probably stay there, so go ahead & slather on some CPP or another brand and go for it.

Edited by - Voyager on 01/20/2013 09:41:53

bubbagulf
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Response Posted - 01/20/2013 : 10:47:20

If JD is going to be in the water for only 6-8 weeks, then I would have a diver clean the bottom every week. In Texas, some divers would give a big discount if you use his/her services on a weekly basis ($1.50/ft instead of monthly $3/ft).

Edited by - on

Davy J
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Response Posted - 01/20/2013 : 11:47:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">We could pull the boat after a few weeks and clean the hull. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Once a week, if possible and without having to take down the rig, you could just pull the boat at the ramp, power wash it and put it back in. Unfortunately that's probably only slightly less work than to just launch the boat like you do now.

Edited by - on

DaveR
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2015 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2013 : 12:16:11

I had a boat in for only 2 weeks and it already had hundreds of barnacles starting to grow that were very difficult to get off. BEWARE!

Edited by - DaveR on 01/20/2013 12:20:53

frog0911
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Response Posted - 01/20/2013 : 12:35:49

Paul, I agree with Dave, I had my ski boat at the repair facility for some work and they did not trailer it for 10 days resulting in hundreds of small barnacles. It cost them big time to get them off and then repair the hull. The little buggers ate through the gelcoat. I figure you have the choices of paint, weekly cleaning or pull it and leave it rigged on the trailer. Good luck.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2013 : 13:03:50

Latest plan is to talk with the marina and find out the 'hard' options. I really do not want to paint the bottom, I'm of the impression that once painted, it will need repaint frequently even if not left in the water for a lengthy period.

They do have a 'hard' that has secured access. We could leave the boat there on the trailer with the stick up. I'm guessing it would take us about 20mins to get from the hard to the water.

So a call to the marina on Tuesday should outline the options.

Paul

Edited by - on

Tradewind
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531 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2013 : 15:09:14

Paint it or pull it, anything longer than 2 or 3 days in southern salt water needs paint unless you're cruising and moving. I'm talking from over 35 years in Florida and Carribean waters. Don't let it sit for a week or you'll be scraping barnacles and repairing gelcoat.

Edited by - on

bear
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Response Posted - 01/20/2013 : 17:33:19

Paul, JMTCW, Brandy's bottom has never been touched since coming out of factory. 95 WB. Sits in the water from April thru Sept. It is fresh water in upstate N.Y. Pressure wash cleans off algae. I'd try leaving it in for your 6-8 weeks and see what the bottom looks like.Also, in my earlier days I've raised the centerboard and rudder and pulled into a beach and srubbed most of the bottom with scrub brush. {Tipping the mast helps]. Once on a dock you wont leave it.

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delliottg
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Response Posted - 01/20/2013 : 19:13:40

If you do consider painting the hull, remember that hard paints pretty much need to stay wet, or they get too hard. Then it's a scuff coat and repaint before you put it back in the water. Ablative doesn't require this. If you're going to only do it for a couple of months, having it scrubbed 1x/wk (or doing it yourself?) would seem to be a good way to test out the process. As folks have predicted, you're likely to like having the boat in the water ready to go, and once you've made that decision, you can go ahead & paint the hull.

Edited by - on

glivs
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Response Posted - 01/21/2013 : 04:55:35

To follow up on David's statement, co-polymers are designed for seasonal in water use and wear very well. One good application will give you several years of service. A bit pricey up front but in my opinion - don't argue with barnacles...tenacious little buggers. If you are an experimentalist you could find a clean surface (even a plastic bottle), submerge it in the environment near where your boat will be and see how long it takes to be colonized. The rate will depend on season but if the salinity is right I think you might be surprised how rapid it will occur.

Edited by - on

panhead1948
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Response Posted - 01/21/2013 : 10:31:27

I sail on Lake Erie so I am in the water 6 month of the year. In the fall they pull it and power wash the bottom. In the spring I touch up the bottom paint and launch. I started to use a water base bottom paint called Aquaguard. It seems to work very well last season. Haveing your boat in the water all the time is worth it. There are time when you can't go sailing but just being on the boat relaxing and being on the water is worth every minute. KJ

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 01/21/2013 : 15:25:06

Two words... Pettit Trinidad.

Sten

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 01/21/2013 : 19:13:46

I have a few comments that differ slightly from some of the advice provided here. But I think they are more relevant for your C250 than the C25 guys have provided.

First, if you paint your virgin bottom, I would do some research before doing a barrier coat. The vinyl ester resin used on the C250 does not blister, so I believe that epoxy barrier may be unnecessary. IMO, it's very different from what the C25 guys need to do. But first check it out yourself with a dealer who sells new Catalina boats.

I would also check very carefully before sanding that nice vinyl ester bottom, because I've heard that sanding could destroy some of the no-blister properties. If I had a new bottom like that, I'd look carefully into the Interlux No-Sand Primer. It's nasty stuff (NEVER spray it), but it is a great adhesion promoter and a quart would be more than enough for your whole bottom. If I were painting a fresh new vinyl ester bottom, I'd look into using this stuff. (I do use it for spot priming areas that have a history of adhesion problems, and it has been effective when everything else failed.)

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And while it is true that most hard paints lose their effectiveness unless they stay in the water all the time, there are some hybrid "hard ablatives" that are durable enough for trailering and can spend time out of the water without losing their effectiveness. They could be a very good option for putting your boat in the water a few weeks at a time, then onto the trailer.

The hybrid ablative that I use is Pettit Vivid. It is available in white, which might give your bottom a "less painted" look. It works well for me in fresh water, but has a lower copper content than some other paints, so might not be ideal for warm salt water. But if you're going to pull out and clean every few weeks, it might be good enough. [EDIT: Despite the low copper content, Vivid performed pretty well in Practical Sailor's long-term tests, which IIRC were in Florida.]

Bottom paint formulations are a very regional thing, so you should be very cautious about taking advcie from a global message board that includes a lot of freshwater and cold water guys. (My own advice is just as suspect as the rest.) Definitely get some additional advice from fellow boaters and boat yard workers in your area.

Edited by - TakeFive on 01/22/2013 06:28:01

glivs
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Response Posted - 01/22/2013 : 05:47:18

Rick...good advice. /OT A minor clarification however. Vinyl ester was used by Catalina on C25s from 1989 on and as Frank in the past and you note, sanding is not recommended. As for vinyl ester bottoms not blistering...I am still amazed at Larry's (Robins Nest, '89) bottom refinishing ordeal. I don't know what led to the problem, but circumstantially it would appear vinyl ester bottoms can blister. /End OT

Edited by - glivs on 01/22/2013 05:47:44

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 01/22/2013 : 08:17:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by glivs
 Rick...good advice. /OT A minor clarification however. Vinyl ester was used by Catalina on C25s from 1989 on and as Frank in the past and you note, sanding is not recommended. As for vinyl ester bottoms not blistering...I am still amazed at Larry's (Robins Nest, '89) bottom refinishing ordeal. I don't know what led to the problem, but circumstantially it would appear vinyl ester bottoms can blister. /End OT
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thanks for the info. I was not aware of exactly when the vinyl ester switchover happened.

Did Larry confirm that his boat is definitely made with VE resin? Sometimes a 1989 model's hull could be laid up in 1988, so is it possible his boat was just before the changeover? He can determine the exact date that manufacturing was completed (but not started) from the HIN, and compare that to the switchover date (if he has not done that already).

I've never heard of a C250 with blisters, but would like to hear from other C250 owners if they have had them. As I mentioned, my own information should be considered suspect, and I'm happy to hear others' experiences.

FWIW, my C250 appears to have no barrier coat under the bottom paint, and it has no blisters. It has spent most of its life in fresh water, which is known to generally cause worse blistering than salt water (higher osmotic pressures are generated when resin salts are immersed in fresh water). However, my boat dries out on the hard 5-6 months a year, which tends to reduce the tendency to blister.

Edited by - TakeFive on 01/22/2013 21:03:27

redviking
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Response Posted - 01/22/2013 : 18:18:39

I've said it before and I'll say it again, bottom paint is not a place to save money. Hinckley Yacht Services in Savannah applied 2 coats of Pettit Trinidad three years ago... Lysistrata has been in the water ever since in southern warm waters. When the diver goes down the barnacles come off like butter. I only have my bottom cleaned 2-3 times a year while everyone else gets done monthly or every other month...

sten
DPO "Zephyr" '82 C25 SR FK #3220
SV "Lysistrata" '73 C&C39 - Dunedin FL

Edited by - redviking on 01/22/2013 18:19:10

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 01/22/2013 : 20:59:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 I've said it before and I'll say it again, bottom paint is not a place to save money...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I heard you the first time. When I suggested that another paint was "good enough" it had nothing to do with price. It's all about balance of properties, because no paint can do it all under all conditions.

Pettit Vivid sacrifices some copper content, but you get a paint that is harder and more durable than typical ablatives, so it can stand up to trailer pads. Also, it does not lose effectiveness when stored on the hard like typical hard paints do. But I cannot personally vouch for its effectiveness in Florida salt water. However, I believe that Practical Sailor tested it in Florida, so that would be an excellent reference for Paul.

Pettit Trinidad is a very highly regarded paint, especially in harsh Florida conditions, but ONLY if it is left in the water year-round. If it's allowed to dry on the hard it will oxidize like all modified epoxies. While it's been stated that sanding off the oxidized layer will reactivate it, I can tell you from experience that sanding a hard epoxy paint is no picnic. Maybe Trinidad sands easier - I have no personal experience with that paint, so I'm just speaking in generalities about the difficulty of sanding modified epoxies.

Even the most expensive paints have compromises that make them less than optimal under certain conditions. If Paul intends to pull his boat out of the water for even part of the year, Trinidad may not be the best paint for him at any price.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 01/22/2013 : 21:47:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 I've said it before and I'll say it again, bottom paint is not a place to save money...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
While it's been stated that sanding off the oxidized layer will reactivate it, I can tell you from experience that sanding a hard epoxy paint is no picnic. Maybe Trinidad sands easier - I have no personal experience with that paint, so I'm just speaking in generalities about the difficulty of sanding modified epoxies.

Even the most expensive paints have compromises that make them less than optimal under certain conditions. If Paul intends to pull his boat out of the water for even part of the year, Trinidad may not be the best paint for him at any price.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hmmm, perhaps... Trinidad reactivates after a good sail or with a wet scrubby pad. The stuff is rather soft, so too many bottom cleanings will shorten its life.

sten
DPO "Zephyr" '82 C25 SR FK #3220
SV "Lysistrata" '73 C&C39 - Dunedin FL

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Response Posted - 01/22/2013 : 22:34:00

I too have heard it's not good to sand vinylester gelcoat. The keys are thoroughly removing the mold release agent (wax) and, if you use a no-sand primer, follow its instructions on timing precisely. Generally, these primers should be painted over before they set up fully. People who don't follow the instructions carefully find their paint falling off and say bad things about the primer. And if you don't remove the mold release, trust me, the primer falls off!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/22/2013 22:35:29

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